CSistine Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 5 hours ago, Starship Krupa said: If true, one would have to admire their commitment to subscription licensing. Most software manufacturers seem to be more interested in keeping their users rather than driving them off. That's what I was thinking, too. But seeing what has been happening since the announcement I am not so sure anymore whether BL wants to keep the "old" Sonar folk. I think they have noticed that most of them are not interested in the BL universe, but only in CbB! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John T Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 9 hours ago, Pathfinder said: So they both install to the original CW directory? Just checking. Thanks and sorry but I couldn't find the answer. No, it installs to its own folder. I've got both installed side by side without issues. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John T Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 2 hours ago, CSistine said: Sorry, but Ripple Editing was already a part of Sonar Platinum! Hmm. Sonar Platinum came out in 2015. Ripple editing was added in 2017. I dunno, the thing gets updates all the time, and has done for years. This is some alternate reality nonsense we're diving into here. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SVSX Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 I´ll just wait and see what happens next with Cakewalk. I´m still owning Sonar Platinum, X1 and older versions and can use them for older projects. So if they´re really going the subscription only route i´m sadly out. Thinking about changing to Reaper or Studio One (maybe someone has a reccomendation for me), but i'm hoping that will not be the case. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starship Krupa Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 14 hours ago, Bruno de Souza Lino said: The whole argument of holding pricing information and never being direct when asked about that when it was first announced nowadays feels more like they were testing to see how users would react with a subscription only model and to cause people not content with that to jump ship early so Bandlab would be met with little resistance when they introduced a subscription only model. Given that they withheld the information and have never been direct, why do you think it's likely that they were waiting to spring a subscription model on the userbase? Wouldn't it be just as likely that they were going the other way? By this I mean testing to see how users would react to a perpetual-only model and to cause people who prefer to buy subscriptions to jump ship early? Why one and not the other? I mean, subscription licensing means that you only get $8 (or whatever) a month, whereas a one-time license nets a company many times that, especially at launch time. BandLab, a company that had to buy the old company's code for cash and has been giving it away for 6 years while paying the programming and support staff with it bringing in zero income all that time might be eager to get some money back on their investment. You say that perpetual licenses "don't provide the instant profit shareholders demand and fail to keep users tied to an ancient piece of software." So let's break that down. If we conservatively estimate that Cakewalk Sonar would have 500,000 people who would want to get licenses as soon as it comes out, and we assume that $8 gets you a monthly sub, $8 X 500,000 is only $4,000,000.00, whereas $80 for a perpetual license (another guess) X 500,000 is $40,000,000.00. I'm no accountant, nor am I a shareholder, but $40,000,000.00 looks better to me than $4,000,000.00. As far as "keep[ing] users tied to an ancient piece of software," once people paid their $80, even if they decide they hate the new program with its fuzzy graphics, hard-to-read lettering, and lack of new features beyond the "vector-scaling" buzz term, BandLab gets to keep their entire license fee. But if they buy it on subscription, dissatisfied people will let their subscriptions lapse, which means all BandLab would ever see is their $8 (or maybe $16 if they try it for 2 months). So isn't it just as (or even more) likely in your scenario that the perpetual model is the one they're going to try to force on their whittled-down user base? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Kelley Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 Maybe Bandlab is going to come up with a one-time pay price that undercuts everyone else and they corner the market! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Kelley Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 (edited) 4 hours ago, SVSX said: I´ll just wait and see what happens next with Cakewalk. I´m still owning Sonar Platinum, X1 and older versions and can use them for older projects. So if they´re really going the subscription only route i´m sadly out. Thinking about changing to Reaper or Studio One (maybe someone has a reccomendation for me), but i'm hoping that will not be the case. Join the Reaper and Studio One forums. There are lots of people that came over from Sonar/CbB and have great tutorials for making the switch. I would say more but this isn’t the place to deep dive the competition. Edited March 22 by Terry Kelley 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njm255 Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 (edited) 2 hours ago, Starship Krupa said: Given that they withheld the information and have never been direct, why do you think it's likely that they were waiting to spring a subscription model on the userbase? Wouldn't it be just as likely that they were going the other way? By this I mean testing to see how users would react to a perpetual-only model and to cause people who prefer to buy subscriptions to jump ship early? Why one and not the other? I mean, subscription licensing means that you only get $8 (or whatever) a month, whereas a one-time license nets a company many times that, especially at launch time. BandLab, a company that had to buy the old company's code for cash and has been giving it away for 6 years while paying the programming and support staff with it bringing in zero income all that time might be eager to get some money back on their investment. You say that perpetual licenses "don't provide the instant profit shareholders demand and fail to keep users tied to an ancient piece of software." So let's break that down. If we conservatively estimate that Cakewalk Sonar would have 500,000 people who would want to get licenses as soon as it comes out, and we assume that $8 gets you a monthly sub, $8 X 500,000 is only $4,000,000.00, whereas $80 for a perpetual license (another guess) X 500,000 is $40,000,000.00. I'm no accountant, nor am I a shareholder, but $40,000,000.00 looks better to me than $4,000,000.00. As far as "keep[ing] users tied to an ancient piece of software," once people paid their $80, even if they decide they hate the new program with its fuzzy graphics, hard-to-read lettering, and lack of new features beyond the "vector-scaling" buzz term, BandLab gets to keep their entire license fee. But if they buy it on subscription, dissatisfied people will let their subscriptions lapse, which means all BandLab would ever see is their $8 (or maybe $16 if they try it for 2 months). So isn't it just as (or even more) likely in your scenario that the perpetual model is the one they're going to try to force on their whittled-down user base? I would think a business calculates that more people would pay the cheaper subscription price than the higher perpetual license price. So in actuality the number of buyers would be lower than the number of subscribers. Also you'd have to take into account the length of a subscription. Will it be month to month where you can drop at any time or are you locked in for the year? Not to mention a lot of people forget they're even subscribed and will still be getting charged even if they don't use the product anymore. It's not really as simple as you say and subscriptions obviously are profitable because all these companies are moving in that direction. The corporate world won't waste time and energy on something that won't bring back a profit. Bandlab's main goal is most likely to draw more people into the Bandlab ecosystem hence why this initial Sonar release is tied into a Bandlab subscription instead of being a separate release. Perpetual licenses won't do that. We'll find out eventually. Edited March 22 by njm255 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno de Souza Lino Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 16 hours ago, Misha said: Will you wash my dishes and do laundry for a month if you are wrong? Those services would cost you more money than whatever pricing Sonar charges for a perpetual license if they do so. 16 hours ago, Lynn Wilson said: Perhaps you missed ripple editing, articulation maps, tempo tracks, and numerous stability fixes while it's been free - I don't know about you, but fixes are not features unless they introduce new functionality which wasn't present before the fact. - While the tempo track could be considered a feature, it's only a repacking of the tempo map stuff which already existed. 12 hours ago, Starship Krupa said: So your theory is that BandLab's strategy was/is to announce the product early and with scant information regarding pricing (including no mention of mandatory subscription licensing) so that by the time it's actually released, enough users will have given up on it that there won't be enough left to join together in protest of the licensing being subscription-only? That's one way to put it, considering a lot of what Bandlab sells is subscription based before CbB went commercial. 7 hours ago, CSistine said: But you are correct that Articulation Maps, Tempo Track, Arranger and the new Export Window have been added to CbB. If you don't use them like me (except export window), then the difference is really feeble! But YMMV, as always! IMO, the Export Window with its weird selection quirks and functionality which lies to the user is a downgrade. 2 hours ago, Starship Krupa said: Given that they withheld the information and have never been direct, why do you think it's likely that they were waiting to spring a subscription model on the userbase? Wouldn't it be just as likely that they were going the other way? By this I mean testing to see how users would react to a perpetual-only model and to cause people who prefer to buy subscriptions to jump ship early? Because they never had an answer when several people asked if there would be subscription plans. If the answer was "no" every single time, why wouldn't they say it? And why didn't they respond to criticism towards the whole subscription thing and locked both threads instead? 2 hours ago, Starship Krupa said: You say that perpetual licenses "don't provide the instant profit shareholders demand and fail to keep users tied to an ancient piece of software." So let's break that down. If we conservatively estimate that Cakewalk Sonar would have 500,000 people who would want to get licenses as soon as it comes out, and we assume that $8 gets you a monthly sub, $8 X 500,000 is only $4,000,000.00, whereas $80 for a perpetual license (another guess) X 500,000 is $40,000,000.00. I'm no accountant, nor am I a shareholder, but $40,000,000.00 looks better to me than $4,000,000.00. That looks like more profit if you assume all those users will buy those perpetual licenses at the same time, which is very unlikely. Even if they did, that will net $40,000,000.00 once. Meanwhile, your less profitable subscription plan will net you $48,000,000.00 per year with the same users as long as they keep subscribed. And they're cheaper on the long run because having a steady flow of cash incentives stagnation, which will translate in lack of bug fixes and updates on the long run. Or they're gonna do the same thing Adobe does and simply do minor version updates which do nothing but increase system requirements for that piece of software and break backwards compatibility. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ancjava Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 Wait, Do I understand correclt that for 15$ You get full new Sonar AND other backstage pass features? Sounds like a bargain to me. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeringAmps Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 7 minutes ago, ancjava said: Do I understand correclt that for 15$ You get full new Sonar AND other backstage pass features? Yes, that’s $15 a month. To my knowledge it has not been confirmed that BackStage Pass will always include Sonar. (If it was confirmed, I would “pop” for the $150 a year option) There remains much speculation and hand wringing. Unfortunately, that is all we know at this time. t 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
57Gregy Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 I think we need another forum called "Prognostications". 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Vere Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 I'm not sure why people keep saying " Everybody is going to subscriptions"?? That seems a misconception. I just was researching for the video I just made and I visited at least 14 other DAW websites and only Pro Tools was a subscription. All the more popular DAW's are all cash sales. Most have a few options starting with basic versions at affordable pricing. What is shocking is the sticker price for the top tier versions of some of them. You can bet that the marketing folks at Bandlab have been studying those same pages I visited and using that as part of making the upcoming decisions on pricing. So please stop overreacting about this. WE DON'T KNOW YET! And if it really concerns you why not send Bandlab a Email or use the "contact us" feature on the web site. Posting here might get a little notice from a few Cakewalk staff members but they have no control over this and it might even be doubtful Bandlab listens to their opinions. It is a good time to voice your concerns and it's great to share those with all of us, but that won't be heard by those who count. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Anderton Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 On 3/19/2024 at 8:33 AM, pwal³ said: copy the studio one model, sub with extras/all or standard license for that current major version 😘 Not just PreSonus - also Universal Audio, Avid, Waves, and Native Instruments, among others. It seems the industry is going in the Burger King direction - "have it your way." The beauty of software is that the Bakers can tweak the model easily over time. Also, I can vouch from personal experience that making backend changes to accommodate different purchasing models can be a nightmare. IMHO the Bakers are doing a fine job of nurturing Sonar and keeping it alive and growing. I don't think there's any question they deserve compensation not only for their current efforts, but for the work put into the program while it was free. It seems the only question is what form that compensation should take. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SVSX Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 2 hours ago, njm255 said: I would think a business calculates that more people would pay the cheaper subscription price than the higher perpetual license price. So in actuality the number of buyers would be lower than the number of subscribers. Also you'd have to take into account the length of a subscription. Will it be month to month where you can drop at any time or are you locked in for the year? Not to mention a lot of people forget they're even subscribed and will still be getting charged even if they don't use the product anymore. It's not really as simple as you say and subscriptions obviously are profitable because all these companies are moving in that direction. The corporate world won't waste time and energy on something that won't bring back a profit. Bandlab's main goal is most likely to draw more people into the Bandlab ecosystem hence why this initial Sonar release is tied into a Bandlab subscription instead of being a separate release. Perpetual licenses won't do that. We'll find out eventually. I get your reasoning. But why not both? Why not try to grab the audience, which wants to own a piece of software like myself and try to gather the others with a subscription plan? Just look into all the services you have to pay for nowadays: An average person has Netflix, Amazon Prime, Spotify/Apple/Youtube, Console Online Plan, then maybe something like Photoshop, UAD, Plugin Alliance, Distrokid, Office 365, Gym, and many more things. Now we are witnessing everyone getting greedy and trying to get some of your money too. Either they're raising the prices, cutting features, or introduce the userbase to upgrade plans, while new competitors enter the market with their own services. I was very open to all of this, to a certain degree, but now not anymore. We reached the point of oversaturation and i'd rather buy something, if i need it, then pay them a pile of my hard earned money every month, till i cancel the service and lose access to everything. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSistine Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 4 hours ago, njm255 said: The corporate world won't waste time and energy on something that won't bring back a profit. Don't forget there are trends! Even if it's not successful many people from universities believe in trends! It's stupid, but it's that easy sometimes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 (edited) I don't claim to be a big business guy, but I don't get the, backend issues and extra $$$ cost if you , say, sell a perpetual license and subscriptions. It has been stated a few times so far. So what are we talking here, the price of boxes and postage? So make it a download only. Serve cost. Accountants to track sales vs subscriptions? I think accounts can handle both, we are not talking Microsoft Corp.here. I still just do NOT see the logic in this decision. John V's post above and fine video shows that most daws and software companies SELL. Some subscribe and sell. Cool idea! FEW just subscribe. Just amazes me. Also, I mentioned this before, Yes it was great having CW free with updates. But I am pretty sure the $$$ I spent on CW and ALL upgrades since the early 90's (I always upgraded to the end) kind of balances it out. Oh well.......... Edited March 22 by Pathfinder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbob Blues Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 This horse just will not die, will it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Anderton Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 2 hours ago, Pathfinder said: I don't claim to be a big business guy, but I don't get the, backend issues and extra $$$ cost if you , say, sell a perpetual license and subscriptions. It has been stated a few times so far. Here's an example. I did a preset pack for the Line 6 Helix. Subsequently, Line 6 came out with an update that improved many of the cab sounds. I made the changes for my own use, then approached Line 6 about offering a free update to people who had bought the original pack. They had no problem with the idea, but the company they were using to fulfill orders simply had no way to modify a system designed to sell things to new customers to a system designed to give free updates to existing customers and a different version than it had offered originally to new customers. I ended up including the revised presets with my downloadable Helix book. I ran into the same issues with Sweetwater Publishing about offering periodic, free updates to my eBooks. To their credit, they modified their order processing to give users with previous versions free updates, but it wasn't a trivial undertaking. I believe they're still working on how they can modify the system to sell significant updates (e.g., like going from v1.0 to v2.0) at half-price to owners or previous editions. I figured it would be easy to do...wrong. Despite Sweetwater being a technologically hip company, it took them quite a bit of effort to bulletproof the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heath Row Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 (edited) They should sell tickets to the forums, the entertainment value is pure gold, they never fail to deliver The Cakewalk Forums Edited March 23 by Heath Row 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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