Barrie Posted June 14, 2023 Share Posted June 14, 2023 Yea, I own the PA Unlocked edition of Gig Performer - obviously the "unlocked" is not the case, as they are now saying it's not really the same (though no fault of mine). I've only used it a few time, so not a terrible loss (and I can still run what I have), but would never buy anything from Deskew in the future, based on this. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitekrazy Posted June 14, 2023 Share Posted June 14, 2023 1 hour ago, Grem said: How is the gang over at KRV handling this!!? 🤣 Not a mention. That's the case of niche software. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grem Posted June 14, 2023 Share Posted June 14, 2023 2 hours ago, kitekrazy said: Not a mention. Wow, that surprising. Well, ya gotta give Deskew props for even posting in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon Posted June 14, 2023 Share Posted June 14, 2023 (edited) 43 minutes ago, Grem said: Well, ya gotta give Deskew props for even posting in this thread. not really (IMO) ? can you imagine if anyone else did that: Waves: ahh, sorry you bought from everyplugin and they discount....so your licences are worthless to us. Izotope: sorry you bought from JRR with a 'group code' , there is an admin fee if you want to stay with us. NI: sorry, you bought from TimeAndSpace and they don't exist, so you need to pay extra. Toontrack: ohhh, you bought from BestService with their loyalty program and so you need to pay us the extra $$$ etc. Everybody deserves to get paid for their work, including ex-IBM developers, but customers are also entitled to get what they paid for. The $15 'admin fee' is just an extra slap in the face and shows the true reason for the decision - they just want more money $$$ - in some sense this is worse than what Waves attempted. Deskew should be ashamed of themselves - but I feel they are probably not Edited June 14, 2023 by simon 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon Posted June 14, 2023 Share Posted June 14, 2023 On 6/13/2023 at 8:11 AM, John Maar said: Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I will not say that any of the sentiments mentioned in the previous posts are wrong, but I will say that I don't agree with them. indeed - so I my reply is meant very respectfully..... On 6/13/2023 at 8:11 AM, John Maar said: I have been a regular user of the unlocked Windows version of Gig Performer since early v2, and an active member of their support forum. Deskew isn't a big company. It's a couple of guys who came from IBM Research who happened to be musicians who needed/wanted a better product for hosting instrument and effects VSTs for live use. Gig Performer is the result. yes, and I've been with Gig Performer since v3 - via PA. I bought it in good faith - fair and square - with my own money. We should ALL pay for the software we used. On 6/13/2023 at 8:11 AM, John Maar said: Back when I had to work for a living, I spent over 15 years doing active software development. I also qualified and certified third party software for use in the oil and gas, and SCADA industries. In my opinion, Deskew provides the most responsive and most useful support of any software developer I've every dealt with, going back to the late '70s and my use of DEC PDP-8 minis at Fermilab (octal assembly language with a three-pass paper tape assembler). great but I'm not sure how your personal career experience is relevant to this current situation ? But I would point out that Deskew NEVER provided support for PA customers - I know because I tried. On 6/13/2023 at 8:11 AM, John Maar said: I remember when the PA-locked version of GP was released. Deskew had to modify GP to lock it to PA's plugins. From the beginning, Deskew made it clear that the PA version would not be updated with every point release (vX.x.x), but from time to time with a dot release. (vX.x). yes, I bought the PA UNLOCKED version, in good faith. On 6/13/2023 at 8:11 AM, John Maar said: I can tell you that the amount of new functionality that comes with each new release of the full version is astonishing, and they only charge for upgrades when moving to a new major version (vX to vX+1), and that only happens every couple of years (like Studio One). All of that new functionality is driven by their existing user base on their very active support forum. But there isn't a new release ? they are asking for payment to get on the .x updates - although they haven't actually said how many of those updates there will be, if any ? On 6/13/2023 at 8:11 AM, John Maar said: If their requested upgrade pricing from the PA-locked version to the full unlocked version is not worth it to you, cool. But don't complain about it. It's their product and they have a right to price it any way they want. Personally, I have received WAY more value from GP than what I've paid over the years. GP and Studio One are my two main music apps, and I don't see that changing any time soon. ahh - again you are talking about the PA-locked version...I bought the UNLOCKED version (twice, both v3 and v4) - and why shouldn't I complain ? It's their product but I am still a customer and just because they 'have a right' (not actually true!) to price it any way they want - doesn't make it ok. Basically because they think PA screwed them they are screwing us - great! On 6/13/2023 at 8:11 AM, John Maar said: Peace, love and understanding. you too 🕊️ but slightly less of the 'love' to Deskew (on the contrary!) 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antler Posted June 14, 2023 Share Posted June 14, 2023 (edited) So from what I've seen: Deskew don't discount. They want everyone to pay the same price for Gig Performer (with exceptions for education). Deskew receive a certain percentage of sales-income from PA when people buy Gig Performer (from PA). Deskew is a small company and want to be fully compensated for each sale. According to others on here, they are good people; I have no personal experience with them to agree or disagree with this statement. When people buy GP at a discount from PA (sales, vouchers, etc.), Deskew receive a certain percentage from the actual amount paid. This amount is less than full price, and thus conflicts with (3). Deskew want to detach from PA because of the conflict in (4), which has only now been realised. Gig Performer's been available for purchase for a long time from PA - at least a few years. I'm not sure I understand: did nobody at Deskew check their income stream/s to see that the income from PA was lower than expected? Edited June 15, 2023 by antler Clarify statement on Deskew being a small company of good people 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grem Posted June 15, 2023 Share Posted June 15, 2023 (edited) @antler you make very valid points. I always want to give the small company the benefit of doubt. However, a small company would surely know that going into a deal with PA the profit margin would be smaller. I have a lot more conflicting statements that I am wrestling with. Your point #4 says it all. If they want to be compensated as you point out in #1, why go into a deal with PA? They had to know thier product would be discounted. Yet they claim they didn't. I call BS on them not knowing. Thus they knew that they would leave every buyer out in the cold that purchased from PA. Yep, not a good move no matter how you dress it up. Great points Antler. I won't be buying GP. Good luck Deskew. Edited June 15, 2023 by Grem 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon Posted June 15, 2023 Share Posted June 15, 2023 (edited) On 6/14/2023 at 10:53 PM, antler said: Deskew is a small company of good people Possibly - but the evidence suggests they are also wanting to gouge as much money out of people as possible. Originally they were going to totally cut many of the PA customers adrift - they have backtracked a LITTLE on that and are happy to welcome you onboard if you pay $169 upfront some of which they may refund. Also they want an additional $15 'admin fee' from PA customers - what is that ?........well it's nothing but a PA Punishment Tax. Why do PA customers have to pay an ADDITIONAL $15 compared to Deskew customers ? What is the $15 actually for ? On 6/14/2023 at 10:53 PM, antler said: did nobody at Deskew check their income stream/s to see that the income from PA was lower than expected? yes - and they even posted ON THIS FORUM that they knew that PA offered vouchers and sales. They were well aware about it on their own forums too. They are now just looking for excuses to charge you again for the software licence you already bought. --------------------------- Gig Performer 3 is fairly late in it's development cycle - there hasn't been an update for over a year. I'm betting NO additional features will be added. This means that the $169 (ish) payment is actually for bug fixes in the version you already have. That stinks. We can also assume that GP5 (corrected typo!) is around the corner. What they should have done is welcome ALL their existing customers on board, charge them ALL an upgrade fee to get to GP5 (corrected typo!) and move on. Personally I'll vote with my feet and stick with the PA version I have. People who run a company like Deskew don't deserve ANY of my money, they make Waves look like amateurs. Edited June 16, 2023 by simon 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antler Posted June 15, 2023 Share Posted June 15, 2023 16 hours ago, simon said: Possibly - but the evidence suggests they are also wanting to gouge as much money out of people as possible. I've edited my post to reflect that they are good people according to others on here, and that I have no personal experience with them to agree or disagree with this statement. 16 hours ago, simon said: yes - and they even posted ON THIS FORUM that they knew that PA offered vouchers and sales. They were well aware about it on their own forums too. I noticed that too, and it seems to add evidence to the first quoted statement of this post. 16 hours ago, simon said: We can also assume that GP4 is around the corner. What they should have done is welcome ALL their existing customers on board, charge them ALL an upgrade fee to get to GP4 and move on. Agree. When Dear Reality (semi) parted ways with PA, they offered a free licence transfer (as someone here already mentioned). DR later released a reverb, and a distortion effect. In truth, I have 'need' for neither as I already have plenty of plugins in those categories. But they seemed cool, and I thought they sounded pretty good. So I bought a copy of them both. I also don't know what the admin fee is about. I bought several library from Time+Space. When they packed up, it meant I could no longer (re)download any of my purchases. But, every single company that I contacted (so far) with proof added me as a customer free of charge, regardless of whether I used a T+S voucher or not. That includes developers that very rarely/never go on sale, and developers that prioritise their own store much more over reseller purchases. I bought GP with a voucher from PA. I didn't particularly need it. I bought it because of a combination of hearing good things about it, having nothing else I wanted from PA at the time, and my PA voucher expiring soon. Had Deskew accepted the purchase, I probably would have paid for the next upgrade even though I hardly use it. But they chose not to. And as I don't really use it, I don't think I'll crossgrade or upgrade. And their sentiments seem to indicate that we'll both be ok that decision. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSteven Posted June 15, 2023 Share Posted June 15, 2023 (edited) 21 hours ago, simon said: Gig Performer 3 is fairly late in it's development cycle - there hasn't been an update for over a year. I'm betting NO additional features will be added. This means that the $169 (ish) payment is actually for bug fixes in the version you already have. That stinks. We can also assume that GP4 is around the corner. What they should have done is welcome ALL their existing customers on board, charge them ALL an upgrade fee to get to GP4 and move on. Do you mean GP5 is around the corner? I have PA's GP3 and GP4 v4.5.8 NM, I'm sure it's just a typo... Edited June 16, 2023 by TheSteven 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Jameson Posted June 19, 2023 Share Posted June 19, 2023 On 6/14/2023 at 10:41 PM, simon said: I'm betting NO additional features will be added. I will take that bet. Any amount you like! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon Posted June 19, 2023 Share Posted June 19, 2023 12 minutes ago, David Jameson said: I will take that bet. Any amount you like! well that bet is gonna cost me around $150 so v4.5.9 needs to have an amazing feature to justify that...and I'm still not giving you a cent - PA customers should get that for free as WE'VE PAID FOR IT ! As you've said "it was your mistake" ! to be honest I'd rather you posted explaining why you are asking your customers to pay twice ? and why you are charging a $15 admin fee - what's the justification for that ? We can buy plugins cheaper than your 'admin fee'. it's already been pointed out that you've known about PA's pricing for SEVERAL YEARS. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon Posted June 19, 2023 Share Posted June 19, 2023 (edited) @David Jameson I'm guessing you're DHJ on the GP forum ? https://community.gigperformer.com/t/updates-and-plugin-alliance-full-unlocked-version/4399/7 Quote We love PA! you just don't love their (and YOUR) customers Edited June 19, 2023 by simon 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno de Souza Lino Posted June 19, 2023 Share Posted June 19, 2023 On 6/14/2023 at 4:54 PM, Grem said: Well, ya gotta give Deskew props for even posting in this thread. In my opinion, this feels more like damage control than anything remotely resembling customer care and support. I won't be surprised if Deskew also have posts in every other forum or community where negative opinions of their practices formed. Plus companies deserve no props for doing what's essentially their job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antler Posted June 20, 2023 Share Posted June 20, 2023 23 hours ago, David Jameson said: I will take that bet. Any amount you like! David - wouldn't it make more sense from a business point of view to give some idea as to what these features might be, rather than potentially provoking existing customers. While Deskew have repeatedly stated that they simply wish to be paid the correct amount for their software (with exceptions made for those in academia), PA customers will necessarily need to violate this rule to Deskew's advantage by paying more than the asking price by way of an 'admin fee'. Many of Soundiron's libraries can be upgraded to a larger edition (where applicable) by paying price difference. They ask for proof of purchase, and offer a discount before the sale that will reduce the price by the price already paid. They ask for no admin fee. I'm a customer of another sample library developer that offers loyalty discounts where, again, you email them upfront and they issue a discount code with no further charge. It might help if you could explain what the admin fee goes towards - is the process of issuing a coupon truly arduous such that it deserves the equivalent of $15 remuneration? Does it go towards paying another entity for data transfer? Alternatively, it has already been mentioned in this thread that perhaps Deskew wish to keep their customer base small; not staying with PA (and thus now NI) would achieve that. Perhaps this is simply a tactic to dissuade customers from staying. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dumbquestions Posted June 20, 2023 Share Posted June 20, 2023 Waves gonna WUP, Deskew gonna GPUP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno de Souza Lino Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 2 hours ago, dumbquestions said: Waves gonna WUP, Deskew gonna GPUP At this rate, Deskew is gonna introduce a new sales format called "Chapter 11." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Walton Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 Are there really enough customers to buy this host software for $200 a seat to keep this company afloat? As much as they seem to complain that PA offered extreme discounts, I'm betting most of us have only purchased the product because of that. I know the only reason I have V3 and v4 is due to what they consider hefty discounts. They never provided any support to me so one would think that is simply free money they wouldn't have and the advertising was PA and word of mouth here. I would have never heard of the product without those avenues. And Id bet I'm in the same boat at most of those here. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno de Souza Lino Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 58 minutes ago, Brian Walton said: Are there really enough customers to buy this host software for $200 a seat to keep this company afloat? As much as they seem to complain that PA offered extreme discounts, I'm betting most of us have only purchased the product because of that. I know the only reason I have V3 and v4 is due to what they consider hefty discounts. They never provided any support to me so one would think that is simply free money they wouldn't have and the advertising was PA and word of mouth here. I would have never heard of the product without those avenues. And Id bet I'm in the same boat at most of those here. Why can't companies be like FabFilter and just deliver a quality product sans BS? They don't even have to put their plugins on sale because they just sell on their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Carr Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 (edited) I really can't get my head around what Deskew are trying to achieve here. Can you imagine buying a dell laptop on sale from Amazon, you take delivery and turn it on, then a pop-up appears saying you can't download any firmware updates until you pay the difference between the price on Amazon and the Dell website? This is essentially what Deskew are asking for... absolutely crazy! It's a real shame as I've been an evangelist for this app - if you play live with VSTs it's the best solution, period. What is weird is they seem to realise they are pissing off customers who bought on a sale from PA, but don't care. I've bought version 3 and 4 in full from PA in the past, but now I'm a second class citizen and expected to stump up more cash for V4 which I've already purchased? Not exactly an inviting offer is it... Really hope they've got their sums right, it's a very niche product which is excellent at what it does, so I hope they continue to survive and do well... pissing off paying customers doesn't sound like the best approach, but hey, what do I know? Edited June 23, 2023 by Matthew Carr 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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