Multiple Vocal Takes?

[Pathfinder]

I believe this is what got me into a mess before-not understanding of course. I would record a vocal and then undo recording. Repeating this process many times in the project.

Guitars I normally get right the first time but still?

What is the best practice if I want\need to do this until I am happy with the vocal? I will gladly watch\read any necessary video tutorials, etc. Need to know what to look for.

sorry for the basic question again. Just trying to end my old bad habits and replace with the proper or most used approach.

Thanks very much

Edited November 23, 2023 by Pathfinder

[mettelus]

Look up "Comping"... you can record multiple takes without the need to undo anything, then choose the best phrases from the take lanes.

 

[OutrageProductions]

Ditto with @mettelus on Comping.
In the real studio... we get the vocalist warmed up, in the pocket, in the groove, and then run them down at least 6 track lanes so that we can comp the best. That way there are very few timbre variations in the performance.

[Pathfinder]

Thanks- I remember doing (should say trying) this way back when, but never really learned it. I found 3 other videos, so I have 4 videos to learn from now!

Thanks very much 🙂

[Will.]

6 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

I believe this is what got me into a mess before-not understanding of course. I would record a vocal and then undo recording. Repeating this process many times in the project.

Guitars I normally get right the first time but still?

What is the best practice if I want\need to do this until I am happy with the vocal? I will gladly watch\read any necessary video tutorials, etc. Need to know what to look for.

sorry for the basic question again. Just trying to end my old bad habits and replace with the proper or most used approach.

Thanks very much

If it sounds right - it probably is. Certain leads need two takes stacked on top one another. Never overthink your work. If your vocals sounds right with the drums alone - take a wild guess what could be your problem . . . 

Compare you vocals against each instrument. If you bring a riff in that throws your lead out, that riff dont belong there. Same goes for every other track. Best practice would be to find the instrument in the project that compliment your vocals. Sometimes you just need to replace the kick, snare, synth or keys with another of the same. Most times its the balance of the song too. So if it doesnt fit on track, but fits while you sing to it check these points. 

Edited November 23, 2023 by Will.

[HOOK]

I'm not a fan of comping lanes.  I've tried it and it really just feels like too many damn options by the time I start comping.

I do it like you do, Pathfinder.  Even if I'm "in the real studio".  I break up the vocal into chunks that I can really focus on.  Maybe half a verse.  Hell...even one line at a time sometimes.  And it's not rare that I'm going back in to set up a punch for a word....or two words.  Sometimes, even just the beginning of a word.  So...I'm comping, but not in the "take lanes" sort of way. You just have to take a lot of care that the punches are in the right spot, and that you're delivering the vocal in a consistent way that allows for clean punches.

And I'll work on verse 1, followed by verse 2 to help keep the tonality similar.  Then I'll move on to chorus 1, chorus 2, etc.

Anyway.  That's what has always worked for me.  That's the way I learned to do it when tape was the medium.

[John Vere]

Bottom line is everyone will have a different workflow and if you have time try a few of them and see which one gets you the best results and in the shortest time. 

Comping with Comping record mode for me makes a huge mess  of my projects and you can accidentally erase or loose a good take.I absolutely hate take lanes. 

I do a combination of 2 methods. 
First I insert 3 vocal tracks. 
I run through the whole song and replete this for  all 3 tracks. 
The first take is most often useless if I think it was OK might copy to a 4th but otherwise. 
I return to track 1 and record until I hear myself screw up then stop and redoing those parts as I go. I use manual and automatic punch in. 
This is now 80% good to go. I make a copy of this track. 

Now I listen a few times and redo stuff I don’t like. I’m still in vocal track 1. 

Now I’m 90% done 

I chop it into phrases and using my custom shortcuts z to open x to render I fix a few things in Melodyne. I have learned that less is best. Sometimes Melodyne can’t fix something so this is where I might see what I have in track 2 and 3  or the back up.  I’m still set up and I might have to punch in a new take. 

99% done. 

Then I use the 2 and 3 tracks to record harmonies if needed otherwise I delete everything not used now.
I  Melodyne the snot out of the harmonies and do a lot of timing stuff to sync to main vocals. 

That last 1% is the stuff you might hear later as you add lead guitar and keyboards etc  

I record my vocal tracks at the point in a song where it is only the rhythm guitars, bass and drums. There’s no effect yet either. You should never record fills until the vocals are finished to avoid conflicts. This is how you play in a real band. I don’t even add drum fills until later. A good song should sound great with just simple back up. I have go play these live so that’s my reasoning. 
 

 

Edited November 23, 2023 by John Vere

[msmcleod]

I hated comping when it came out, but if I'm honest, it was because I really didn't understand it - I'd been using Sonar/CbB like it was CWPA 9 for years.

Once I watched a few tutorials it became much clearer what was going on, and now I use it all the time for guitar solos, drums, and sometimes vocals - I stick it on loop and record several takes.

For anything else,  undo, rewind, re-record just like I did in the tape days.  I find for most things this is far quicker than painstakingly editing stuff.

[Pathfinder]

38 minutes ago, msmcleod said:

I hated comping when it came out, but if I'm honest, it was because I really didn't understand it - I'd been using Sonar/CbB like it was CWPA 9 for years.

Once I watched a few tutorials it became much clearer what was going on, and now I use it all the time for guitar solos, drums, and sometimes vocals - I stick it on loop and record several takes.

For anything else,  undo, rewind, re-record just like I did in the tape days.  I find for most things this is far quicker than painstakingly editing stuff.

That's what I use to do, record, undo, etc. I really want to avoid the missing file stuff I use to come up with and 99% of the time it was a wav. file. Which could only be vocal or guitars because everything else I do is midi and not bounced until I am done with vocals nd guitars..........

[John Vere]

Since per project audio folder was made as the default back with Splat I think, you should never be loosing audio. That was mostly in the days when the default was global audio. You have to manually delete audio. 
And this is why it is best practices to be backing up properly as you go. 

[Sailor55]

I'm not a great singer, yet good enough to make a demo that gives a real singer a concise idea of what I'm after.

I don't like take lanes either. I sing vocals one line at a time. Take after take. I usually know when I've done a keeper. Of course, that's almost never.  Thus, I save a ton of time by not bothering to listen to a dozen takes that I know are weak (i.e. most of them). After enough takes (followed by ctrl-Z), my vocal delivery improves to the point where I have something that's worth examining in Melodyne. If the Melodyne tweaking is not too extensive, I'll do the necessary editing, then render, then move on to the next line.

After I've finished the whole tune I'll take a serious listen to entire vocal in context of the entire song. Invariably, I find there's always a few few lines that could have been better.  I will correct these by the same method detailed above. And yes, it take ages. Did I mention I'm not a great singer?.

Why bother if I plan to hire a pro anyway?  Well, I don't necessarily hire a pro for everything and I don't want any of my demos to be cringe-worthy.

A good singer would find the above to be pure madness.  But I am a pragmatist. I tend to work with what I've got. But I'm always alone when doing thirty takes of the same line.  Nobody wants to hear that. The trick for me is to be ruthless. If I know I've flatted (or, more likely, wavered) on the last word of an otherwise reasonably good take, I'll delete it and keep trying.

The worst thing about comping is the process of deciding what is "best" from dozens of takes.  I prefer to decide that on the fly.

[John Vere]

@Sailor55 We have a lot in common. More or less how I work.  it wasn't the best I can do = DELETE!!  Try again. 

I do my 3 tracks in a row knowing I won't keep 1 and 2. It gets you warmed up. 

[Pathfinder]

16 hours ago, John Vere said:

@Sailor55 We have a lot in common. More or less how I work.  it wasn't the best I can do = DELETE!!  Try again. 

I do my 3 tracks in a row knowing I won't keep 1 and 2. It gets you warmed up. 

That is pretty much what I have been doing most of my CW life (early90's) I always thought that was wrong, as stated above. 
So do you delete the 2 tracks or just delete the audio in the track? I must be doing something incorrectly.
I also rename projects to where I end up with 7 or 8 with the date on the end as a reference. Another bad habit I imagine.

[57Gregy]

I have always used Loop Recording. Just like Take Lanes without the Lanes.
Never had a problem with them.

[charles kasler]

 

On 11/24/2023 at 9:16 AM, 57Gregy said:

I have always used Loop Recording. Just like Take Lanes without the Lanes.
Never had a problem with them.

very late response - that's what I want to do, I just don't have a good workflow with take lanes. Do you still set the recording mode to comping, or to SOS?  I still would like to have separate tracks I can audition but not sure if I can still do that. 

[John Vere]

It’s pretty easy to use individual tracks to preview. Use Solo Exclusive. I also will use the Ctrl W to make it so transport returns to the start of the phase I’m previewing. 
You have 3 or 4 tracks with you different takes stacked up. You insert a empty track ( I use track templates) and you set the now time before the first phrase and use exclusive solo listen to each track in turn. Pick the best one and drag that phrase to the empty assembly track. Use the shift key to keep timing right. 
Move to next phase and repeat. 
 

But lately I’ve been just doing the live punch in method using only one track. 
Sing the whole song and then go back over it listening and punching in the bad parts. It’s sort of the easiest way for me. 

Edited February 17 by John Vere

[Glenn Stanton]

i used to do the same thing - record, delete, re-try, multiple full takes then edit tracks etc.

then i watched a couple of comping videos which clearly explained it, and the next session - comped it. 12 takes by 2 singers (i.e. 6 each). once you get the hang of skimming through the takes and picking the best one, then on to the next (all key strokes to move and select), it went really fast, like less than 30 minutes. then onto the detailed edits, clip gains, de-essing, pitches etc etc. next project same  success and again and again.

using the takes and comping tools is my workflow now. last note: Melodyne - once you have the track comped - you can do a lot of the work in Melodyne - tweaking any minute timing and pitch, de-essing a bit, node leveling,  cleaning up noises, etc and then rendering.

Edited February 17 by Glenn Stanton

[mettelus]

10 hours ago, charles kasler said:

very late response - that's what I want to do, I just don't have a good workflow with take lanes.

I think the biggest hurdle for me personally when getting acclimated to Take Lanes was paying attention to the cursor as I was moving around clips. The smart cursor has several actions embedded into it, so zooming in a smidge while learning controls made it much simpler. Pay attention to where you are hovering and what the cursor looks like before taking "action" on clips. Once you force yourself to work through it a few times, it does become a very fast method to work with takes.

[Bristol_Jonesey]

You also have the option to store takes in separate tracks which might help

 

[charles kasler]

Thanks for the responses. I do store them in separate Lanes but I will take a closer look at the cursor options. I want to like this process but so far it's been more troublesome than helpful.