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[Niky Serrano]

3 minutes ago, PavlovsCat said:

So when someone shares that discount widely -- which it wasn't the intent of the discount -- it creates an unanticipated problem for the company. that negatively impacts revenue and margins and projections, ...

 

Agree at 200%

[MrFigg]

22 minutes ago, PavlovsCat said:

I'm pretty sure that you realize how it was intended. 

It was intended to keep a subscriber who wanted to unsubscribe from leaving. Basically, it was a company making an effort to even sell product at a loss to maintain a relationship with a customer or prospect. As I explained in the earlier post, companies calculate how much it costs to recruit and maintain a customer -- it costs a lot. A company may spend enough money acquiring a customer that the customer is not even profitable during their first year as a customer. Consequently, considering how much it costs to attain a new customer is a strong consideration and then you have a cost to RETAIN existing customers PLUS there is a value / cost for acquiring or losing a direct communications cost with a customer/prospect. What ISW was doing was saying, we'll accept that we're willing to lose money on this transaction in order to maintain a relationship with this person. 

So when someone shares that discount widely, resulting in a lot of people using it who otherwise would not be using it, it creates an unanticipated problem for the company. that negatively impacts revenue and margins and projections, which can result in things like not being able to meet projections and pay employees' salaries, various expenses,  and contractors expected payments (small developers routinely use contractors who are commonly paid a percent or some amount of revenue of the products they worked on). Andrew was being pretty transparent about this stuff in his post, something you rarely see from developers and I think that deserves the community's respect -- even if you did find aspects of his posts not to your liking. The fact that he came here and explained why this practice is a problem for his company, I think, is a respectful and civil reaction to the threads. 

 

Yep. That's what I thought...

2 hours ago, Andrew Aversa said:

The majority of people on our email list are folks who downloaded a free instrument like Shreddage 3 Stratus Free or Super Audio Boy, but have not purchased anything. Our observation is that these free customers typically take years to become paid customers, and a minority of them EVER do

But we also noticed that even if someone took years to go from free -> paid product, they typically became lifelong customers,

Hence why we aimed to offer this deal. IF we had the opportunity to reach these folks when they were leaving, maybe we'd have one more chance to show them the value of our instruments.

But...well you know the rest right?

 

1 hour ago, PavlovsCat said:

I'm not moralizing regarding the two ISW threads on this forum with schemes to trick their system. Obviously, no one who participated in those threads had the understanding that they were using the system as intended, they were opportunistically trying to take advantage of the system to get something in a manner that was unintended. I'll leave it up to everyone's personal consciences to decide whether or not they find that is ethical or not.

You say you're not moralizing..."opportunistically" and "taking advantage of"  certainly do carry an element of judgement I would say. Maybe that's not the way you intended it to be read?

 

I do absolutely agree with you when you wrote  "Andrew was being pretty transparent about this stuff in his post, something you rarely see from developers and I think that deserves the community's respect."

Edited June 22, 2023 by MrFigg

[MrFigg]

50 minutes ago, kitekrazy said:

There was a known developer who found his product greatly reduced on MF and was not going to honor the licenses.  There was enough negative feedback on KVR to where that changed his mind plus it was a player license.  I guess he didn't understand that the reduction was when boxed software was being outdated. 

 

 Hey but we need more DAW drama.

MF?

[PavlovsCat]

4 hours ago, MrFigg said:

Yep. That's what I thought...

But...well you know the rest right?

 

You say you're not moralizing..."opportunistically" and "taking advantage of"  certainly do carry an element of judgement I would say. Maybe that's not the way you intended it to be read?

The point of my above two posts was to explain things from a developers' perspective and to call for civility towards the developer. I believe that Andrew's posts have been reasonable. I don't think he stated everything perfectly -- but not many of us (including me) do. 

I think my referring to the practice of exploiting  extreme discounts in an unintended manner opportunistic or taking advantage of the system is certainly an accurate description. I don't know why you feel the need to dissect my posts other than that you're looking for an argument. I didn't make any moral proclamations. I just described what was being done in a manner I believe is accurate. Anyhow, I was and still am hoping that people will consider the developer's point of view and treat him with respect, that's all. I'm not saying anyone has to agree with everything that he wrote, just that they should consider it and treat him with respect and not lash out and lose all sense of civility. 

Edited June 22, 2023 by PavlovsCat

[kitekrazy]

9 minutes ago, MrFigg said:

MF?

Musicians Friend

[MrFigg]

8 minutes ago, PavlovsCat said:

The point of my above two posts was to explain things from a developers perspective and to call for civility towards the developer. I believe that Andrew's posts have been reasonable. I don't think he stated everything perfectly -- but not many of us (including me) do. 

I think my referring to the practice of exploiting  extreme discounts in an unintended manner opportunistic or taking advantage of the system is certainly an accurate description. I don't know why you feel the need to dissect my posts other than that you're looking for an argument. I didn't make any moral proclamations. I just described what was being done in a manner I believe is accurate. Anyhow, I was and still am hoping that people will consider the developer's point of view and treat him with respect, that's all. I'm not saying anyone has to agree with everything that he wrote, just that they should consider it and treat him with respect and not lash out lose all sense of civility. 

I agree with you wholeheartedly about treating people with respect. I think I only read one comment though which in my opinion certainly didn’t meet that criteria. 
To be honest, I’m on the side of the dev. He hasn’t done anything wrong. Just didn’t work out as he’d intended but maybe the experience will prove beneficial. 
We’re all on this forum becasue we love a bargain and we’re GASsed out our heads. Even you have been known to participate in a little code magic if my memory serves me well   

Edited June 22, 2023 by MrFigg

[kitekrazy]

Izotope messed up once and they knew it and decided to run with it.

Silence in fixing the glitch instead of attacking people.

It's a 2 way street. 

Edited June 22, 2023 by kitekrazy

[MrFigg]

7 minutes ago, kitekrazy said:

Izotope messed up once and they knew it and decided to run with it.

Silence in fixing the glitch instead of attacking people.

It's a 2 way street. 

Wasn’t it ADSR who messed up with Nectar 3 then didn’t want to run with it?

Edit: no wait a minute. I think I remember the IZotope  glitch too. 

Edited June 22, 2023 by MrFigg

[marcL]

I am quite irritated about some comments here! Why do some defend such developers that are doing shady marketing?

Are such scam strategies by the developers ethical? Aren't their prices probably too high for today's market? Andrew's logic that prices have not increased and thus they're good is foolish IMO! Everybody in this forum knows that prices on music software/samples have dropped significantly in the last 10 years! The market has changed remarkably, don't they understand this?

[Craig Fowler]

43 minutes ago, MarcL said:

I am quite irritated about some comments here! Why do some defend such developers that are doing shady marketing?

Are such scam strategies by the developers ethical? Aren't their prices probably too high for today's market? Andrew's logic that prices have not increased and thus they're good is foolish IMO! Everybody in this forum knows that prices on music software/samples have dropped significantly in the last 10 years! The market has changed remarkably, don't they understand this?

I don't think it's fair to suggest that Andrew is scamming anyone (though maybe your comment wasn't directed at ISW). 

With that said, you're right that the way the music software market works has shifted. I feel bad (a bit anyway) for 'taking advantage' of the ISW coupon. Unfortunately, it's become very difficult to tell whether a 'glitch' is a pricing/tech error versus something hidden as an Easter egg to drum up quick business (or that might have initially been inadvertent but then is allowed to run for so long that the company is at least tacitly endorsing it). .

Cinesamples and AudioOllie are the audio software devs that most recently come to mind as having had 80% off (or thereabouts) 'glitches' that were allowed to run for several days after people had checked with them whether it was legit. And, with the way coupons are stacking at UAD at the moment, I've bought several of their plugins (including sampled instruments) this month at 90% off. When even UAD have started playing in PA pricing territory (I got Ravel and Waterfall for $24 each!), it's easy to start thinking that this really is the new 'norm' for everyone...even if it isn't, as was clearly the case for ISW. 

What I do appreciate from Andrew's comments here is some insight into the impact NI licensing could have and the way those costs are based on full price rather than a discounted one. 

[Bruno de Souza Lino]

1 hour ago, MarcL said:

Why do some defend such developers that are doing shady marketing?

Because companies teach their users and encourage them to engage in corporate tribalism.

[antler]

1 hour ago, Craig Fowler said:

What I do appreciate from Andrew's comments here is some insight into the impact NI licensing could have and the way those costs are based on full price rather than a discounted one. 

And musicians' royalties too for some libraries.

[kitekrazy]

46 minutes ago, MarcL said:

I am quite irritated about some comments here! Why do some defend such developers that are doing shady marketing?

Are such scam strategies by the developers ethical? Aren't their prices probably too high for today's market? Andrew's logic that prices have not increased and thus they're good is foolish IMO! Everybody in this forum knows that prices on music software/samples have dropped significantly in the last 10 years! The market has changed remarkably, don't they understand this?

I don't think it was shady marketing but a mistake they found out.

Price drops in music software is a general statement, not so much with sample libraries.

[Carl Ewing]

8 hours ago, Craig Fowler said:

I don't think it's fair to suggest that Andrew is scamming anyone (though maybe your comment wasn't directed at ISW). 

With that said, you're right that the way the music software market works has shifted. I feel bad (a bit anyway) for 'taking advantage' of the ISW coupon. Unfortunately, it's become very difficult to tell whether a 'glitch' is a pricing/tech error versus something hidden as an Easter egg to drum up quick business (or that might have initially been inadvertent but then is allowed to run for so long that the company is at least tacitly endorsing it). .

Cinesamples and AudioOllie are the audio software devs that most recently come to mind as having had 80% off (or thereabouts) 'glitches' that were allowed to run for several days after people had checked with them whether it was legit. And, with the way coupons are stacking at UAD at the moment, I've bought several of their plugins (including sampled instruments) this month at 90% off. When even UAD have started playing in PA pricing territory (I got Ravel and Waterfall for $24 each!), it's easy to start thinking that this really is the new 'norm' for everyone...even if it isn't, as was clearly the case for ISW. 

What I do appreciate from Andrew's comments here is some insight into the impact NI licensing could have and the way those costs are based on full price rather than a discounted one. 

In a massively absurdly oversaturated market it was just a matter of time until price wars brought priceless down to rock bottom level. This means smaller developers who have have significant overhead will be eliminated, because they can't price compete and likely never sell enough products at traditionally "normal" prices to stay in business. In this environment, small companies REALLY have to think hard about what products they want to develop. Because anything that is even remotely "generic" or remotely similar to products from companies that have a) ginormous marketing teams b) ability to sustain rock bottom prices, will be a problem.

ISW does have unique products - that do fall into niche territory (Shreddage series, Tokyo Scoring Strings), but they are really at the mercy of companies like, say, Native Instruments, that can run a 50% off sale offering consumers a terrabyte of sample libraries and a gazillion effects / tools, including guitars and orchestra, for $600 (current sale price for Komplete 14 Ultimate). Or a Creative Cloud subscription for $200 a year. Tokyo Scoring Strings sells for $449.

This is an absolutely brutal market for small developers.  As a note - Spitfire Audio and Orchestral Tools get away with their absurd prices because their marketing is at Apple-tax levels, and their you-will-pay-an-absurd-premium-hipster-black-turtleneck-level-pretentiousness is unrivaled.

 

Edited June 23, 2023 by Carl Ewing

[marcL]

9 hours ago, Craig Fowler said:

What I do appreciate from Andrew's comments here is some insight into the impact NI licensing could have and the way those costs are based on full price rather than a discounted one. 

Relating to the NI licensing I think it was ISW's decision to make it a Kontakt Player product! Many small developers create "full Kontakt" products to avoid this cost!

IMHO it is a bad thing for owners of Kontakt full, if a product is Player compatible, because this raises the price and makes installation/authorization worse (NI Access).  Also the more Player products are in Kontakt, the slower it starts (I know, one could remove them manually from loaded libraries).

[Fleer]

OTOH those Kontakt Player libraries don’t require people to buy Kontakt, which still is important to some, or many. 

[kitekrazy]

6 hours ago, MarcL said:

Relating to the NI licensing I think it was ISW's decision to make it a Kontakt Player product! Many small developers create "full Kontakt" products to avoid this cost!

IMHO it is a bad thing for owners of Kontakt full, if a product is Player compatible, because this raises the price and makes installation/authorization worse (NI Access).  Also the more Player products are in Kontakt, the slower it starts (I know, one could remove them manually from loaded libraries).

The Player is a form of anti piracy for larger libraries.  At one time 9 Volt Audio found their Taiko 2 on sites before it was released for sale.  Gigastudio lost a lot of developers because they would protect their app but not the libraries.  

 I'm sure some developers could state benefits of using Kontakt player and it's not just piracy. 

   

[Doug Rintoul]

5 hours ago, Fleer said:

OTOH those Kontakt Player libraries don’t require people to buy Kontakt, which still is important to some, or many. 

I wonder if it is possible to sell two versions of a library, one for Kontakt player for a higher price than one for full Kontakt. 

[Brian Lawler]

44 minutes ago, Doug Rintoul said:

I wonder if it is possible to sell two versions of a library, one for Kontakt player for a higher price than one for full Kontakt. 

I think I recall Realitone doing that with one of the libraries I have (banjo or guitar). Can't recall the price difference.  I went the cheap route.

Edited June 23, 2023 by Brian Lawler
ty[p

[Carl Ewing]

2 hours ago, kitekrazy said:

The Player is a form of anti piracy for larger libraries.  At one time 9 Volt Audio found their Taiko 2 on sites before it was released for sale.  Gigastudio lost a lot of developers because they would protect their app but not the libraries.  

 I'm sure some developers could state benefits of using Kontakt player and it's not just piracy. 

   

Just checked through a torrent site - virtually every Kontakt library is available, and Kontakt is fully cracked, just like it was 15 years ago...including Kontakt 7. Meaning any library built for Kontakt 1-7 will be totally piratable (word?).

What's interesting is that the only products I see from developers who have their own proprietary players (Orchestral Tools, Spitfire, etc.) are the Kontakt versions. For example, all Kontakt version of OT libraries are on torrent sites. I'm sure that was a motivation for some of those devs to get away from Kontakt - too many resources devoted to cracking all things NI. 

Edited June 23, 2023 by Carl Ewing