iZotope, Brainworx, and Plugin Alliance are now part of NI

[kitekrazy]

6 hours ago, bitflipper said:

I just went through this last week. I noticed there was an update to Replika, a plugin I'd completely forgotten I even had. But when I tried to update it, it said the installation failed because the installer couldn't delete the previous version. I verified there weren't any permissions issues and ran the installer as Admin, even went so far as to delete Replika myself to save it the trouble. I went to the FAQ which explained that a registry key needed to be deleted. Welcome to 1980, NI. This reminded me of installing UNIX applications back in the day.

After all that I had to try Replika to see if it was worth the effort.

It wasn't.

I will say this about Native Whatever They Call it Now - I do like being able to get a list of everything NI that I've got, just as a reminder of how much $$$ I've blown on stuff that never got used. It'll be worth a chuckle if it now starts reminding me to update Trash.

That's because Ni installer write a shitload of code to the registry.  

[marcL]

2 hours ago, kitekrazy said:

That's because Ni installer write a shitload of code to the registry.  

Not only to the registry, but also these folders with cryptic names in the ProgramData location. Many years ago when I first saw such folders in ProgramData I removed them, because I thought it's written by a virus, no professional can do something like that! Some time later I couldn't uninstall NI products anymore! 😄

[chris.r]

Same here. Some vendors put their installation files in these places on my OS partition, some files as big as >500MB. I was trying to free up some space and removed couple of these files and then couldn't update or uninstall! NI, Roland, AIR being among the offenders here.

[Nick Blanc]

Besides Native Access having trouble with installing something like Komplete in 1 go, I have little issues. The one gripe I have is that I delete the VST2's and it keeps saying I need to repair. That's a PITA.

I'm going to move my Kontakt Libraries to a different drive and tested this out with a couple of libraties. Worked very smoothly. I could do a mass action in NA were I can update the path for the moved products. Just move everything to a new drive, open NA, it says which are missing, select 'Relocate All' and you're good to go.

My logic says it shouldn't affect any projects which use those libraries, am I correct?

[marcL]

1 hour ago, Nick Blanc said:

Besides Native Access having trouble with installing something like Komplete in 1 go, I have little issues. The one gripe I have is that I delete the VST2's and it keeps saying I need to repair. That's a PITA.

I'm going to move my Kontakt Libraries to a different drive and tested this out with a couple of libraties. Worked very smoothly. I could do a mass action in NA were I can update the path for the moved products. Just move everything to a new drive, open NA, it says which are missing, select 'Relocate All' and you're good to go.

My logic says it shouldn't affect any projects which use those libraries, am I correct?

I did move some Kontakt libraries, too, it works! But I wonder why it is not possible to define the target location for each single library straight during installation? IMHO NI's idea to install such huge libraries in one location only is really stupid! But that are those big companies!

[Nick Blanc]

14 minutes ago, MarcL said:

I did move some Kontakt libraries, too, it works! But I wonder why it is not possible to define the target location for each single library straight during installation? IMHO NI's idea to install such huge libraries in one location only is really stupid! But that are those big companies!

I get you, you probably know you can set the default installation path, but indeed it is not possible ot change it per product. Or you will have to change the default path every time and install them one by one.  But I get it though, how many people are spreading out the installation across multiple locations?

[bitflipper]

 

1 hour ago, Nick Blanc said:

...how many people are spreading out the installation across multiple locations?

My sample libraries just won't fit on a single 1-TB drive, much less on C:, so I have two 1TB drives, a conventional drive for my less-used libs and a 1TB SSD for the ones I use most. These contain not only Kontakt libraries but also Spectrasonics instruments, Superior Drummer, Cakewalk samples and anything else that's big that I don't want taking up space on my C: drive.

The problem is that installers often have their own ideas as to where that stuff should go, and it's not worth the headache to argue with them because in some cases you'll have to make the same argument again with the next update. Worse, you may click through prompts without thinking and end up with duplicate installations.

Fortunately, Windows offers a fairly easy solution to this problem with a feature called "symbolic links". Directories are entries in other directories, just like files are. Symbolic links let you change where a directory entry physically points to, while still maintaining the original directory entry. Because this trick works at the file system level, programs are fooled into thinking the directories and files are still at the old location and are able to find them easily.

For example, my c:\program files\cakewalk folder looks like this:

 Volume in drive C is OS
 Volume Serial Number is 566F-D73B

 Directory of C:\Program Files\Cakewalk

06/15/2023  05:34 AM    <DIR>          .
06/15/2023  05:34 AM    <DIR>          ..
10/15/2016  03:52 PM    <DIR>          CA2A Leveling Amplifier
05/06/2023  11:32 AM    <DIR>          Cakewalk Core
06/10/2023  04:45 PM    <SYMLINKD>     Dimension Pro [e:\cakewalklibs\Dimension Pro]
06/09/2023  03:06 PM    <DIR>          Next
07/26/2017  12:17 PM    <SYMLINKD>     Rapture [e:\cakewalklibs\Rapture]
09/12/2016  10:36 AM    <DIR>          Shared DXi
05/16/2023  12:40 PM    <DIR>          Shared MIDI Plugins
05/06/2023  11:33 AM    <DIR>          Shared Plugins
06/03/2023  02:00 PM    <DIR>          Shared Surfaces
06/03/2023  02:00 PM    <DIR>          Shared Utilities
06/03/2023  02:00 PM    <DIR>          Sonar
10/26/2017  05:18 PM    <DIR>          SONAR Platinum
07/26/2017  12:18 PM    <SYMLINKD>     Studio Instruments [e:\cakewalklibs\Studio Instruments]
06/30/2018  05:49 PM    <DIR>          VST32
06/01/2023  05:21 PM    <DIR>          VstPlugins
09/12/2016  10:36 AM    <DIR>          z3ta+
               0 File(s)              0 bytes
              18 Dir(s)  137,609,318,400 bytes free

Note that the Dimension Pro, Rapture and Studio Instruments folders say "<SYMLINKD>" rather than "<DIR>". That's because those folders have actually been moved  to the E: drive, with symbolic links left behind in the original folder that redirect to their actual location, also shown in the directory listing. CbB/Sonar is none the wiser, and opens them normally. I did not have to reinstall or reconfigure anything.

This works for any files or folders, including other large data such as video games or databases. And it's easy to do.

The only wrinkle is that the command to create a symbolic link, named mklink, is a DOS command, so you have to open a command prompt to use it. 

First, copy your folders to wherever you want them to be moved to. Then delete the original folder(s) and create a new symbolic link with the same name. In my case, I put all my Cakewalk samples on the e: drive in a top-level folder called "cakewalklibs". So to create the link for Studio Instruments, I navigated to the real Cakewalk folder and typed in the following:

        mklink /D "Studio Instruments" "e:\cakewalklibs\Studio Instruments"

The /D option tells it I'm creating a directory (folder) rather than a file. The quotes are necessary because the folder names contain spaces. 

And that's it. Cakewalk now happily opens the instruments and finds their samples, thinking they are still on C:. Kontakt finds any libraries I've referenced in previous projects (even though Kontakt itself is still on C:). Even Windows' File Explorer plays along with the deception, so if I ask to see what's in c:\program files\cakewalk\studio instruments, I get a listing that shows everything's still there:

C:\Program Files\Cakewalk\Studio Instruments>dir
 Volume in drive C is OS
 Volume Serial Number is 566F-D73B

 Directory of C:\Program Files\Cakewalk\Studio Instruments

07/26/2017  12:11 PM    <DIR>          .
07/26/2017  12:11 PM    <DIR>          ..
07/26/2017  12:11 PM    <DIR>          Documentation
07/26/2017  12:11 PM    <DIR>          SI-Bass Guitar
07/26/2017  12:11 PM    <DIR>          SI-Drum Kit
07/26/2017  12:11 PM    <DIR>          SI-Electric Piano
07/26/2017  12:11 PM    <DIR>          SI-String Section
               0 File(s)              0 bytes
               7 Dir(s)  259,174,551,552 bytes free

The only indication that it's not a real folder is that Windows Explorer changes its icon, adding a little arrow like you'd see on a shortcut. To all the world, the Studio Instruments folder is still there, but in reality I've just freed up 1.3GB on my C: drive.

[kitekrazy]

That's why Kontakt rules over others.  It's easy to move libraries.   That's Sampletanks biggest weakness.

[Zargg]

22 hours ago, bitflipper said:

I just went through this last week. I noticed there was an update to Replika, a plugin I'd completely forgotten I even had. But when I tried to update it, it said the installation failed because the installer couldn't delete the previous version. I verified there weren't any permissions issues and ran the installer as Admin, even went so far as to delete Replika myself to save it the trouble. I went to the FAQ which explained that a registry key needed to be deleted. Welcome to 1980, NI. This reminded me of installing UNIX applications back in the day.

After all that I had to try Replika to see if it was worth the effort.

It wasn't.

I will say this about Native Whatever They Call it Now - I do like being able to get a list of everything NI that I've got, just as a reminder of how much $$$ I've blown on stuff that never got used. It'll be worth a chuckle if it now starts reminding me to update Trash.

I've had the same issue at times, and what you need is the NI Uninstall Tool found here:
https://support.native-instruments.com/hc/en-us/articles/115003509269-Fixing-Software-Update-Installation-Issues-Windows-

You need to search for the plugin (can skip/search with "R" for Replika).

[iNate]

23 hours ago, kitekrazy said:

That's because Ni installer write a shitload of code to the registry.  

It doesn't. 

Basically just installation status and install locations. I've looked at this myself. Wi does doesnt use PLIST files. The Registry is where this stuff goes.

Do we really want to go back to tens of thousands of .INI files scattered across the system? Maybe time has erased the memories of how awful that was. 

The FUD in this thread is a bit out of control, LOL. 

Also, if you have Replica XT and Supercharger GT then there is literally no point in installing Replica or Supercharger. The other versions are a superset, and render them redundant. That's why Replika is in Komplete Standard, but only Replika XT is in Komplete Ultimate/Collectors. 

Edited June 16, 2023 by iNate

[swijaya]

15 hours ago, bitflipper said:

about symlinks

This is a very old but neat trick that should be re-mention from time to time.

For those who really-really hate to type, there are some free Windows apps with GUI.

https://schinagl.priv.at/nt/hardlinkshellext/linkshellextension.html

https://github.com/DaxDupont/dirlinker-revived

I do prefer to use this "manual" method rather than taking some more space in my storage.

[marcL]

2 hours ago, iNate said:

Do we really want to go back to tens of thousands of .INI files scattered across the system?

Frankly, I prefer that old way, because then the configuration is together with the application files. It is much easier to find than in this monolith configuration labyrinth!

Nowadays the configuration is scattered across the registry! 😆

[swijaya]

51 minutes ago, MarcL said:

Frankly, I prefer that old way, because then the configuration is together with the application files. It is much easier to find than in this monolith configuration labyrinth!

Nowadays the configuration is scattered across the registry! 😆

I think I'd also prefer INI way. It's easier to change/reset those "undocumented features" of each program. Also, it's safer because one's INI wouldn't affect other softwares.

[Carl Ewing]

On 6/15/2023 at 2:21 PM, MarcL said:

Not only to the registry, but also these folders with cryptic names in the ProgramData location. Many years ago when I first saw such folders in ProgramData I removed them, because I thought it's written by a virus, no professional can do something like that! Some time later I couldn't uninstall NI products anymore! 😄

I remember back in the day trying to figure out Absynth's installation directory logic. It was completely insane. Just ***** files and folders all over the C drive. Complete and total mess.

It hasn't improved at all.  Which is amazing considering the resources NI have. There are software companies with 4 employees that write better code and have better program management than this company. Love their programs though - I just can't over how messy the software is.

Edited June 16, 2023 by Carl Ewing

[Toffo]

18 hours ago, bitflipper said:

symlink stuff 

 

Great post, thank you.

[Nick Blanc]

19 hours ago, bitflipper said:

 

My sample libraries just won't fit on a single 1-TB drive, much less on C:, so I have two 1TB drives, a conventional drive for my less-used libs and a 1TB SSD for the ones I use most. These contain not only Kontakt libraries but also Spectrasonics instruments, Superior Drummer, Cakewalk samples and anything else that's big that I don't want taking up space on my 😄 drive.

The problem is that installers often have their own ideas as to where that stuff should go, and it's not worth the headache to argue with them because in some cases you'll have to make the same argument again with the next update. Worse, you may click through prompts without thinking and end up with duplicate installations.

Fortunately, Windows offers a fairly easy solution to this problem with a feature called "symbolic links". Directories are entries in other directories, just like files are. Symbolic links let you change where a directory entry physically points to, while still maintaining the original directory entry. Because this trick works at the file system level, programs are fooled into thinking the directories and files are still at the old location and are able to find them easily.

I'm mentally saving this for when I have/want to move my samples folder. Ableton doesn't like it when you do that. 

For now, my solution was to only move my full Kontakt libraries to a different drive. I don't use them that often so it's basically your solution of prioritizing stuff you use more regurlarly. So my main take-away from this is that moving Kontakt Player libraries is very easy, moving full Kontakt libraries is also very easy and moving my samples will be very easy using your simlink method.

Edited June 16, 2023 by Nick Blanc
Cleanup

[iNate]

1 hour ago, MarcL said:

Nowadays the configuration is scattered across the registry! 😆

Except you're wrong? Registry has a standardized organization. 

[marcL]

1 hour ago, iNate said:

Except you're wrong? Registry has a standardized organization. 

What a standard! 😄 Typical Micosoft! 👎

[Paul P]

15 hours ago, swijaya said:

This is a very old but neat trick that should be re-mention from time to time.

For those who really-really hate to type, there are some free Windows apps with GUI.

https://schinagl.priv.at/nt/hardlinkshellext/linkshellextension.html

https://github.com/DaxDupont/dirlinker-revived

I do prefer to use this "manual" method rather than taking some more space in my storage.

As scook pointed out recently, and something I've lived with, if your version of Windows is non-english, then you'll have junctions all over the place to connect non-english system folder names with their underlying english equivalents (I have 9 junctions just in my main user's home folder).  So adding junctions may create more than one level of redirection.   I don't know what the risk or penalty is for that.  I use symlinks and junctions, but sparingly.

 

[scook]

Only used US English OSes my whole life.

Seen images of computers running other languagges but that is about the limit of my first-hand knowledge.

I learned about MS's use mklink in non-English Windows from an  old Cakewalk forum user who I believe was French-Canadian.

 

When it comes to performance penalties, I have not tested and do not recall reading any specifics but stuff like this tends to be cached by the OS so the performance penalty is almost zero.