Band in a Box share you thoughts!

[John Vere]

My 14 year old Grandson has taken up the guitar and songwriting and I realized that he would need some sort of tools to help him get his ideas started. 
 

So I bought Band in A Box based on my limited knowledge of what it can do. I had a copy of it back in 200? .

He is a total beginner so his skill at creating chord progressions is zero. But we worked it out because his song was based on very traditional Allen Jackson style country. 

I soon managed to enter the chords for his song and we found a suitable style that instantly brought his song to life. He was hooked. 
 

So I’ll leave him on his own because a 14 year old should actually learn how to use the software faster than me. But the difference will really be he will have to heavily rely on BiaB to write the music until his chops get better. I’m hoping it will also introduce him to 3 chord music theory. 
 

Anyhow myself I have been monkeying around with it and slowly learning more about it. 

I’ll admit that I was not expecting what I’ve been discovering as I learn more about it. The developers seems to have been putting a lot of work into improvements and adding features. 
The interface is super old school but who cares if it gets the job done. 
What I really discovered is how this software is 100 %  dedicated to creating good old fashioned real music and is totally not for making any form of modern styles like EDM. 
It’s made for old school bar band musicians, as well as singer songwriters like me. Not mention lots of other live music like for Church, dances, Jazz trios, Cowboys, bluegrass you name it.  

This is totally the opposite of Cakewalks Next.  
I’m thinking I might end up with a totally new workflow based on BiaB for both getting down song ideas as well as creating backing tracks. 
It seems you can actually finish a song down to fine details in it. 
Yet to be discovered by me is how much midi editing is possible. 

Anyhow share your thoughts as I realize we have a lot of Band in the Box users here.

And what better time than now to discuss using alternative software while we all fall asleep waiting for Sonar. 

Edited February 5 by John Vere

[Terry Kelley]

If you can't play the parts or can't get a band together to play the parts for you, BIAB is a good place to give you some of the "other" musicians you need to make a song.  But you are at the mercy of their libraries which, while good, will tend to drive you to some cliche styles.

One common practice is to use BIAB to create the basics of a song and then go in and replace the parts with your own (or a friends) playing. It's great for trying various things and building up the framework (chords and changes) to a song. It can be very inspirational.

However, letting it do 95% of the playing and then me just going in and singing the vocals and maybe playing a solo eventually gets boring. You tend to create the same stuff over and over. BIAB can quickly become Song-in-a-Can.

But again, as a framework (especially with a large library of styles) it can really trigger ideas and help flush out creativity. But try to avoid the AI aspect (write me a song in this style and with the talents of the most famous musicians) and then claim you wrote and played a song. Spend time practicing and playing for yourself. There are A LOT of BIAB songs out there that the originator didn't play much on it. They programmed it but didn't play. And yes, EDM is much like that but there is some really good EDM and R&B despite that.

I do use BIAB (occasionally) to work out chord complexities beyond major/minor/sevenths. Once done, I play the parts and rarely ever keep anything from BIAB. In the beginning I did though,  but here comes the cliche stuff. It rarely gets pulled out now but it still worth having for getting that kick in the pants to write some songs. And since you can port the waves and midi to Cakewalk, it really helps with inspiration. It is limited in how complex you can make as song. You're not going to to Tarkus in BIAB. Well, maybe in 12 sections!

IMHO

Edited February 6 by Terry Kelley

[Sal Sorice]

I've had BiaB for over a year and have toyed with it but haven't put in the time to learn it well (daunting interface). I agree that is a great source for inspiration and getting ideas going, but maybe not so great for producing a finished product. But who knows? I haven't worked with it enough to make that type of judgement.

A dedicated "BiaB and Cakewalk(Sonar)" forum topic might be a great place to consolidate / share ideas.

[rsinger]

For the first cut of a song, I'll use BiaB to generate a bass line or drums. I also use it to generate backing tracks to practice too. 

[John Vere]

Thanks folks. I guess some things don’t change after 20 years because what you guys are saying was sort of my first impression even back then.

I can even spot BiaB created midi tracks off the internet because of the misplaced drum fills and bass lines that sound like auto generated from a Casio keyboard. 

But these new real tracks seems promising. 
I would never use the bass parts. The drums I’m still on the fence and was disappointed that real tracks can’t export as midi fully. 
I will see what develops and I’ve only made it to page 50 of the PDF manual. On paper it all looks promising. 

[mettelus]

If you are running an older version and like the app it is worth considering the Pro upgrade. The VST plugin (I think this was added in 2019?) is an interesting feature that let's you generate tracks from inside a DAW with less hassle of using BIAB stand-alone. I picked BIAB up in 2020 but didn't really take to it; however, it definitely has a lot of merit, especially to someone new. It actually has a lot of features you wouldn't even think about until you come across them (like recording your own chords to use in song templates and such). @Notes_Norton has done a lot in that area, so he could speak to that far better. Even the music games it has would be very beneficial to a aspiring musician.

[Byron Dickens]

When I use BIAB, it is as an idea generator and then only for stuff that is outside what I usually do.  By the time it gets to "tape," it has been heavily edited and hardly resembles what I was given.

[Glenn Stanton]

i mainly use it to find alternatives to a given song - for instance ALL country songs and ALL reggae songs are 100% interchangeable. if you take a country song and swap the style to reggae or vice versa, 100% fit. every. single. time. 🙂 so a few older numbers i created originally as country songs became reggae because of this phenomena... 

nowadays i use it to generate some solos like sax where my sax playing skills are, erm, limited. very limited. but you need to spend time going through the different "players" and you need to select a style for the song (as well as tempo and arrangement etc) to finally get to a decent solo that doesn't sound "canned" (or too canned - not the bird). 

i have had the middle tier of the options for 20+ years now and there are some electronic style (mostly MIDI) which could be useful (if i did those). and it would be nice to get the MIDI from the real tracks because some of the sounds have too much "enhancement" (reverb, distortion, over compression etc) and would be nice to replace or augment easier than Melodyne or drum replacer etc.

so -- for BAIB - start simply - enter chords, pick a style, set the tempo, repeats and let it rip. you can get quite far using those, and if you feel the need to tinker, beware... the tinkerer elves were the inventors of this product and it's a deep and wide rabbit hole which may consume more time than is worthwhile. but for learning to build up songs and arranging (like using the various . notation and the ^ lead-in notation) it's useful.

for better options on learning to create songs with a lot more flexibility - consider looking into Hookpad. $5/month. http://hookpad.hooktheory.com best $5/month imho. the exported MIDI is generally good, and tons of options as well as a learning tool which is interoperable with the Hooktheory site (i use the free version of that) and a great library of tunes, progressions, and an excellent forum for getting help and discussions on music theory etc (which is imho a better investment in learning music than tinkering with BIAB).

[Notes_Norton]

I bought Band-in-a-Box back in the Atari and PC Dos 5/Windows 3.1 days.

I bought it to practice sax improvisation with. BiaB could be my back-up band while I tried things out from a book many of us have, “Patterns For Jazz”.  @John Vere, I think it's a fine choice for your grandson.

If your grandson has trouble with it, I'll be happy to help him out.

The app has come a long way since then, and added quite a few features. Its original function was as an auto-accompaniment app, and that's where it shines. IMO, the output isn't pro quality, but it's better than a lot of bands that are out there gigging.

I started writing aftermarket Style Disks and Fake Disks for it in the early 1990s. They added the feature, and as a multi-instrumentalist and music arranger, I tried my hand at it. With encouragement from my frieds who also had BiaB, I took out an ad in Keyboard Magazine, and before I knew it I had a mail-order business. It turned into my own little e-tail business https://www.nortonmusic.com and I have customers in over 100 different countries now.

Personally, I like the MIDI styles better than the Real Styles. Why? As I said, IMO, the output isn't pro quality. Since MIDI is thousands of times more editable, I can export the end product from BiaB, import it into a DAW like Cakewalk, and turn the very good song into an excellent one. 

I can get move or get rid of inappropriate drum rolls, change the instrument voices, change chord inversions, fix the occasional inappropriate note BiaB creates, add song specific licks/figures, add expressive elements, etc.  see https://www.nortonmusic.com/midi_vs_loops.html

BiaB has a notation editor, but I like a dedicated notation editor better, like Encore, MuseScore, Sibelius, and others. They allow you to do things that the BiaB notation editor cannot.

But as a music auto-accompaniment app, BiaB is the best in the biz. I've written “For Hire” styles for one arranger keyboard and two other auto-accompaniment apps, and the output of BiaB is far superior.

IMO, every electronic musician needs (In order of importance):

1. A DAW/MIDI sequencer like Cakewalk
2. Band-in-a-Box
3. A dedicated notation editor

This is probably TMI, but once I get started on BiaB, I have trouble stopping. After all, it has become my “moonlighting” business.

Notes ♫

 

[msmcleod]

The results from BIAB are incredibly impressive.  Turning a chord progression into a song really is just as simple as typing in the chords, and choosing a style.

The DAW integration (i.e. using it as a plugin) is awesome.  The BIAB app is pretty powerful but at the expense of a pretty confusing UI.  The plugin reduces everything to the minimum you need, making it a breeze to use.

However, there are some drawbacks, some of them being pretty much blockers for me:

1. The styles are very middle of the road.  Even within specialized genres they sound middle of the road (for example the Prog Rock styles are based on the most "normal" sounding Rush & Pink Floyd songs).  If you're doing country, country rock, blues rock, or some styles of jazz, it's incredible.  Anything else, and you'll be struggling to find something that fits.  In saying that, you can isolate a part (say a guitar solo) from a completely unrelated style to what your song is in, and it can sound amazing out of context.

2. Time signature support is essentially limited to 3/4, 4/4, 6/8 and 12/8.  It fudges things like 7/8 by splitting it into a bar of 4/4 and 3/4 (so really it's 7/4), which can work, but you're pretty much stuffed if you wanted a 3/4 followed by 4/4 feel.

3. Unless you buy the audiophile edition, the backing is pretty much mp3 quality.... which sounds fine for the most part when you listen to the arrangement as a whole, but some instruments (especially distorted guitars) can sound a bit on the lo-fi side in isolation.

[Notes_Norton]

22 hours ago, msmcleod said:

1. The styles are very middle of the road.

You need to purchase my styles  

(Self-serving plug)

 

Notes ♫

[John Maar]

11 minutes ago, Notes_Norton said:

You need to purchase my styles  

(Self-serving plug)

 

Notes ♫

Notes didn't give you a direct link, so I will. I highly recommend Power User Style Disk #17 that offers all Expanded Styles. I'll let Notes tell you what that means, but you want it!

https://www.nortonmusic.com/contents.html#biab

Edited February 7 by John Maar

[Notes_Norton]

Thanks, John.

Band-in-a-Box evolved from a DOS 5 app, and PG Music keeps it back-compatible. That's a good thing, but it also carries some limitations. The limitations include the number of chords in a measure, timing of 120 pulses per quarter note, and no real time signature support.

BiaB's grid is made of numbered cells. The cells can be 1, 2, 3, or 4 beats, and you can use those combinations to make them bars of music. But you don't have to.

By using my EXPANDED styles, you can make each section of a cell a half beat, instead of a beat. This allows you to do these things:

• Put up to 8 chords in a bar of music, and keep it compatible with older versions of BiaB
• Put a chord on a beat and also the 8th not before the same beet, and keep it compatible with older versions
• Enter many cut time songs so that each grid
• Effectively change the resolution from 120ppm to 240ppm.

Here is a free demo EXPANDED style https://www.nortonmusic.com/expanded.html - you need BiaB to use it.

------

I offer regular styles too.

Many of the BiaB styles were made by people who are part-time musicians. Working at PG Music 40 hours a week and also making styles.

The advantage I hope I offer is that I am a full-time, professional, career musician. I play sax, wind synthesizer, flute, guitar, bass, drums, keyboards, and vocals. I've been in almost famous bands and local bars. I've played in rock, disco, country, Latin American, blues, and a variety of other genre bands. I studied music theory and arranging.

So instead of buying styles that were made by an office worker who dabbles in music, you get styles from a career musician who dabbles in computers.

I use the StyleMaker app, from PG Music, so they are 100% compatible with all versions of BiaB.

Demos are here https://www.nortonmusic.com/styledemo.html and here https://www.nortonmusic.com/contents.html#biab

I don't charge much, after the web host, shopping cart company, Visa/MC authorization company, Visa/MC Merchant's account, Business Bank Account, and other “silent partners” there is a little left over for me. Not enough to survive on by any stretch of the imagination, but I make my living playing music, so I don't need to make a killing on software.

I also make Fake Disks (song disks) for BiaB. Explanation, and links with free samples are here https://www.nortonmusic.com/contents.html#fake

And you can export my work from Band-in-a-Box and import it into Cakewalk.

I could say a lot more. If you need more, whether they involve my styles or not, just ask.

 

Notes ♫

[Glenn Stanton]

as a note: i purchased some of Bob's expanded styles (circa 2012?) because i needed more advanced time signatures and really did not have the patience to do the silly 4/4, 3/4 mixing of bars. very nice and quality work for a reasonable price.

[Notes_Norton]

For advanced time signatures in BiaB here is my workaround:

Remember, each cell in the BiaB matrix does not have to be a complete bar/measure of music. It can be a fraction of a  bar, or two bars, depending on the song, and what sounds best.

For 5/4 time, I will set the first cell for 3 beats (using F5 dialog box), and the next cell for 2 beats. That makes the two cells,equal one 5/4 bar of music. Repeat for as long as there is a 5/4 meter. Depending on the song, the first bar might be 2 and the second one 3.

7/4 is similar, either 4 and 3, or 3 and 4.

For 6/8 taken in 2, I'll choose an appropriate sw style (as marked in the style picker dialog) and each cell will be 2 measures of 6/8 or one measure of 12/8.

Sometimes using a 3/4 style, which will make 2 BiaB cells one 6/8 measure works, especially, but not always, if the 6/8 is taken in 6 (slower tempos).

None of these hacks need a special EXPANDED style, just an appropriate PG Music or Norton Music style.

 

Notes ♫