minimizing latency

[Robert Hale]

I am  trying to learn everything I can about latency.

I recognize that each person's computer represents a different set of conditions. My keyboard tracks are ok because they have a softer start. But guitar is very noticeable because it has a sharp  moment  when I pick the strings. I'm using Windows 11 and a Behringer UM2 with latest software loaded.

Does Cakewalk support a test where I can get the delay down to un-noticeable? (For example,  play the click track  from headphones to mic and see the delay?) If not how do you do it?

What other suggestions do you have for latency? Thanks to all responders.

[Robert Hale]

IS this the answer I've been searching for? 

 

[Robert Hale]

latency test only available for Android

[Terry Kelley]

Are you talking delays during record or playback? VST instruments or audio?

During recording, delays can occur if the processor is being ask to do too much at the same time (which is why many of us turn off effects during record.) But playback should be fine. If the processor is being asked to do too much (and the performance meters aren't a good measure of that) you will get stuttering, drop outs, distortion and other artifacts. In that case, we will freeze problem tracks to take the load off the CPU. If your buffer is large, that too will introduce delays during recording on instruments/keyboards. So turn off FX, lower the buffer size to something that doesn't start chopping up the sound, record, then turn it all back on and increase the buffer size if necessary.

Also, if you have Input Echo on Auto Thru on an audio track, your asking the processor to go fast enough to process the signal in realtime. That's often a huge challenge for the program and processor and you will get delays during recording.

But with a decent buffer size for the project and track freezing, there shouldn't be any delays especially on audio tracks since they take so little effort from the processor. It's VST FX and instruments that introduce latency that the program has to adjust for.

Of course if you have only one or two tracks, most processors (and memory) can keep up and you can get away with loading up the FX and a couple of instruments without turning things off during record. We also often run only Cakewalk and will disable Wi-fi during sessions since you don't want other programs and processes interrupting.

Finally, don’t use wireless headphones

Edited May 2, 2023 by Terry Kelley

[Robert Hale]

wow, Terry, thank you for the detailed response!

My concern right now is hearing my guitar in sync with a previous track, all audio, no instruments or VST.

The video I  linked talked about a "latency test" but I don't find the path he described. Audacity has a similar process to play a click thru headphones to a mic. Then enter the difference to perfectly align the new track during record.

Thanks for the tip to shut off wifi, and use wired headphones.

[John Vere]

If I'm correct your interface doesn't come with an ASIO driver. If so you will have out of sync audio tracks. ASIO corrects the timing and adjusts for system latency. All other driver mode including asio4all don't. Watch this video for details

 

https://youtu.be/nlSr3Ab6jj8

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[rsinger]

9 hours ago, Robert Hale said:

What other suggestions do you have for latency? Thanks to all responders.

First thing is what is acceptable latency? If you have an electric instrument how far away from the speaker can you sit and play? 10 feet? 20 feet? Each foot is close to a millisecond delay. If you can sit 16 feet away from a speaker and play then a 16 millisecond delay is acceptable to you. You should be able to look in edit -> preferences in the audio driver section and see what the reported round trip latency is. Is it less than or equal to what is acceptable to you? If so, you should be able to create a click track and record to that. Start with a blank project and create a click track, don't use any fx and try playing and recording to the click track. Does that work?

Edited May 1, 2023 by rsinger

[bitflipper]

I've never used that interface, but from what I've read it would seem that the UM2 has a built-in latency that you can't circumvent.

Most audio interfaces support something called "zero-latency monitoring", aka "direct monitoring", where you're basically listening to the sound coming into the interface directly rather than running it through the computer first. The tracks you record should be perfectly in time with previously recorded tracks, because the DAW knows what the actual latency is and automatically adjusts the start time of your recorded clip accordingly.

Unfortunately, I've found no information to suggest that the UM2 has that feature.

You might want to think about upgrading your interface. The UM2's bigger brother, the UMC202HD has direct monitoring and is only $100. M-Audio has a similar product that supports direct monitoring that's even cheaper at $70.

[Terry Kelley]

Yeah Mr, Flipper. I was just wondering if he was trying to do live monitoring (input echo) rather than the input mix. I would expect there to be a delay on live monitoring. The UM2 does have direct monitoring via a button.

Edited May 2, 2023 by Terry Kelley

[Robert Hale]

Thanks all.

I have used this UM2 with n-track studio without latency.

Does that mean I use the direct button to monitor,  and do not need to buy other gear?

[Robert Hale]

Thanks all.

I have used this UM2 with n-track studio without latency.

Does that mean I use the direct button to monitor,  and do not need to buy other gear?

Is there a "latency test" in Cakewalk? I have not found it.

[bitflipper]

It seems I was mistaken about UM2 not supporting direct monitoring. Sorry about that. Odd that the manufacturer didn't think to mention it, but made a big deal of it when advertising its more expensive siblings.

AFAIK, Cakewalk has no built-in loopback test. It's something you'd only ever do once, after installing a new interface or switching drivers. However, the DAW does query the interface's driver so that it knows how much compensation to apply. If you're using ASIO, you can see the reported roundtrip latency in the Driver Settings panel of Preferences, under "ASIO Reported Latencies". 

btw, the only way to guarantee an accurate round-trip latency measurement is via a loopback test, where you send audio out from your computer, route it back through the interface and record it.

[57Gregy]

14 hours ago, Robert Hale said:

I have used this UM2 with n-track studio without latency.

Without noticeable latency.

There is always latency, always, everywhere.
Some folks don't discern a 19ms or 20ms lag, others claim they can hear 3ms latency. I don't worry about it. I monitor through the interface, record with ingoing effects, have reverb on my monitoring mixer, never record with VSTs active.
But I have an old machine and old software and I am old, too. Still learning this CbB thing on an even less-capable computer. 

Does the UM-2 have any software mixer to set ins and outs, etc.?

[John Vere]

This is a $80 interface possibility the least expensive one you can purchase,  but unlike the others in that product line,  it doesn’t have ASIO drivers. It is class compliant which results in Cakewalk having no control over adjusting for latency.  Audio will be out of sync. 
I would get your money back as it is more or less useless when used with any DAW on a PC. It would probably work fine under OS core audio on a Mac. 
Only option is to run a loop back test and then adjust the timing offset. This might drift on you if you change other settings so it’s not something I recommend. The Focusrite Solo is best bang for the buck in the bottom of the price range. 

Edited May 3, 2023 by John Vere

[Bruno de Souza Lino]

For reference, only the Behringer interfaces with HD in their model name have their own ASIO drivers. You'll need ASIO4ALL for the others. See if you can change to a UMC202HD. It seems to be only slightly more expensive than the UM22.

[Deesnay]

On 5/1/2023 at 1:31 PM, Terry Kelley said:

During recording, delays can occur if the processor is being ask to do too much at the same time (which is why many of us turn off effects during record.) But playback should be fine. If the processor is being asked to do too much (and the performance meters aren't a good measure of that) you will get stuttering, drop outs, distortion and other artifacts. In that case, we will freeze problem tracks to take the load off the CPU. If your buffer is large, that too will introduce delays during recording on instruments/keyboards. So turn off FX, lower the buffer size to something that doesn't start chopping up the sound, record, then turn it all back on and increase the buffer size if necessary.

Great tip. 👍

Is there some way to globally, temporarily disable all effects? Or do you have to go through all tracks to disable effects one by one, and then again to enable them?

[OutrageProductions]

@Deesnay

The operations manual is your friend.

I highly recommend that you download the pdf version and refer to it often.

The big button <FX> will bypass all efx bins simultaneously. (#E in graphic)

See this post for more info:

 

Edited May 23, 2023 by OutrageProductions

[Deesnay]

3 hours ago, OutrageProductions said:

I highly recommend that you download the pdf version and refer to it often.

👍 Great indeed! I wasn't aware of this PDF documentation, and I usually got lost in an online help with broken pictures.

[scook]

21 minutes ago, Deesnay said:

3 hours ago, OutrageProductions said:

I highly recommend that you download the pdf version and refer to it often.

👍 Great indeed! I wasn't aware of this PDF documentation, and I usually got lost in an online help with broken pictures.

While issues with web-based help images are usually addressed by allowing images from unsecured servers, there are other options.

1. The web-based help is most frequently updated. Updates to this help system may happen at any time.
2. CbB 2022.09 re-introduced the local help option. This compiled html file is updated at least once with every major release. See Always Use Local Help for more info.
3. The Reference Guide is the same information using pdf format, published as time permits and generally lags behind the web-based and local help systems.

[GreenLight]

On 5/1/2023 at 10:54 AM, Robert Hale said:

I am  trying to learn everything I can about latency.

I recognize that each person's computer represents a different set of conditions. My keyboard tracks are ok because they have a softer start. But guitar is very noticeable because it has a sharp  moment  when I pick the strings. I'm using Windows 11 and a Behringer UM2 with latest software loaded.

Does Cakewalk support a test where I can get the delay down to un-noticeable? (For example,  play the click track  from headphones to mic and see the delay?) If not how do you do it?

What other suggestions do you have for latency? Thanks to all responders.

I take it you're monitoring external instruments via VST effects?

If yes, you have to try the enabling the setting "Override automatic plug-in delay compensation on live inputs" in the Control Bar. (This button is called "Live Input PDC Override" in the manual, see p367.) It will make latency a lot better when monitoring external inputs!