Backing tracks; betting them to an equal level for gigs

[TVR PRODUCTIONS]

I would be hesitant to use any reverb in fear of muddying up the sound. plus, wont there be natural reverb in a big room?  I suppose I am thinking too much. My fear is having it sound like Karaoke, which a woman I work with does.  She sings good but it is cheesy to me to have her standing alone in a restaurant on the side of the room while singing to some disco song.  Right now I am recording full songs in Cakewalk to hear how it all blends. Then I will mute my voice, guitar, bass and bass players vocals.  I will see how that works.  I guess the best thing to do is to  go into a studio or other large room and play the backing tracks that I made while we play along. Then, record that with a video camera and get an idea of what people will hear. 

The click track would be for the mellower stuff that would be required in a restaurant of low volume place that does not want dancing. So, something like And I Love Her will have those bongos and claves, They are there but are quiet but I am afraid of straying from them if I don't use the click.  Backing tracks are unforgiving and if anyone falls behind or goes ahead, it is going to sound bad.  I had a disastrous moment when playing bass in a Van Halen tribute band a few years back. I thought it would be great to have that iconic horn intro from Running With the Devil open that song. So, I ripped it from the song.  That sound ends abruptly so I had to come in with the bass intro at that very moment. So, I had to cue myself by adding a 4 click count on one side of the stereo recording that I played from my Minidisc player.  Problem was that those shows were so packed with people and loud that I missed the first click so the sound just ended and there was dead silence.  I came right in but that 1/2 second was embarrassing enough to me to leave it out in the future. Its not fun to worry about the technical stuff while you are playing.  That needs to be done by someone else but I have to pay someone 

 

 

[Will.]

Yes, obviously your analyzer should go on your Master Bus when you balance your Backing tracks for gigs or for Digital/Analog CD. 

[RICHARD HUTCHINS]

Thanks all, much to digest.

[John Vere]

With the free version you put the You lean on you master bus in the FX bin but always last in the chain after the limiter. I’m pretty sure that’s in the mixing video. 
As you play the song it will start calculating the results so it’s a good place to start. 
With the paid version you drag and drop the mastered file to its GUI and get a proper absolute reading in seconds. 
 

There’s some interesting discussion here from people that have used backing tracks. But most of you folks seem like it’s way overdone to me. Way to close to Karaoke. Yes cheese comes to mind. 
Since the 80’s my tracks have been Drums and Bass with a little bit of keyboards or possibly a horn section. 

All I can say is I most certainly never had an issue with that configuration and the dance floor was always packed. People like the songs and they most certainly don’t have to even come close to sounding at all like the original. People don’t expect them to. You give it your best and play with lots of energy and it works. 
I’ve seen many duo’s with a drum machine and they do real good. People don’t seem to notice the drums actually suck. It’s the melody and song that count. 
 

And why worry about needing a different mix in different venues ? Do we need different mixes for songs played from CDs or records when there’s a DJ? No. 
A solo or a duo is no different. The backing tracks are a given mix that doesn’t need to change. Why would it? Learn how to create mixes that are PA friendly. 
And you can always do like me and have mixes that say, don’t have keyboards because you’re playing with one that night. 
And the split stereo versions are a perfect solution to having control over certain parts like bass or a click. 

[RICHARD HUTCHINS]

Yes I agree, to a point. Depends on the venue I suppose? We are going for a drums and bass backing, but as my voice is weak I think we need the extra third  harmony, as without it, its just not that elusive "Mersey" sound. Other songs of that genre are easier to follow but the Beatles? Some places we play, you mess with those songs at your peril!🙄

[RICHARD HUTCHINS]

But thanks for the further advice on the plug in John!

[JnTuneTech]

12 hours ago, TVR PRODUCTIONS said:

I would be hesitant to use any reverb in fear of muddying up the sound. plus, wont there be natural reverb in a big room?  I suppose I am thinking too much. My fear is having it sound like Karaoke

-Indeed - you hit upon one of my biggest worries when I started using backing tracks in performance. I still do, but mostly the audience reactions so far have been positive, though of course I usually have more gear onstage and don't play in the format & style of Karaoke - purposely. But you can play fixed arrangements that still have dynamics of a live performance, and then add your live action to complete the picture - and that is always my goal anyway.

Some of the quiet 2-minute renditions such as the above mentioned Beatles tunes are actually the most rewarding, and what initially got me inspired. Back in the band days I would never even consider such a rendition as possible, at least with my fondness for faithful cover arrangements anyway. And having good virtual instruments to draw from, -creatively so many things are possible, and challenging at the same time, with multitrack backing.

And as to using FX - it really, really depends on your goals & capabilities there. But generally, I have never found the room to be any more a factor than when I did a full combo setup & mix. And depending on the material you want to do, it can be part of the performance.  -Another of the tunes I have been proud of, is a rendition of "Us & Them" (along with other linked tracks now too), with DAW FX automation & nice reverbs, it has always gotten good compliments when played, and I just enjoy doing it. No sound engineer, just planning, recording, balancing, and rehearsing. It can be worth the effort!

[Bridget Murphy]

On 11/11/2023 at 10:03 AM, John Vere said:

Where as I agree that having stems is an option it makes for a way more complicated set up. 
And most people like me who play solo with tracks are also our own song tech. Last thing I need is to be fussing with a mixer.
I play the odd show at community events where we get 45 minutes and no sound check. The more complicated your set up the fewer songs you get to play. 

@TVR PRODUCTIONS What type of music do you play? you sound like all you would really need is drum tracks and possibly some keyboards.  So stereo or split stereo might be all you need.
 

My method gives me options of mixing a stereo. Mono or a split stereo Exported  wave files. 
I also play with 1 or 2 more musicians sometimes and we like to downplay the backing tracks. The music is more bluegrass, Folk and Blues oriented. Acoustic guitars, Mandolin and Banjo.  So we only really need bass. 
So I made a split stereo mix with Bass on left and Drums and keyboards in the right. I play Bass on a few songs. Solution. 

I have a Radial DI box that is made for laptops and iPads. 
It is a must have and a key feature is it has a Mono toggle for shows with a sound  guy.  

But we mostly do our own sound. 
We send the Bass to one channel of the mixer and Auxiliary it to a Bass amp. 
The drums and keyboards go to the PA but we keep that down. It will mostly go to our in ears or floor monitors. Why use a click track?? I’d hate that. The drums are there to keep us in sync but the bass is the driving force and keeps us kicking along. 

When I play bass I simply mute the Track Bass channel and unmute my bass which is in another channel. 

My solo act is different depending on event. I do shows with a mix of my originals and covers that fit in.  As well as I do parties and dances playing cover tunes. 
Those I use full stereo mixes and I personally don’t find it that hard to set up that mix in the studio. I’ve never felt the need to mix it live. How many hometown weekend warriors have you heard with a perfect mix?  The punters don’t care.  They just want to recognize the songs. 
I always test everything in the studio with the full PA set up exactly like it will be at the gig.  I just lower the volume accordingly. 
And yes, the last thing you want to sound like as a musician is Karaoke. Kill those harmonies. That sounds scary 😱

The using a multi track recording device is another option and the Zoom L8 is both a mixer and a 8 track recorder. As an experiment I loaded a whole set of stereo tracks to test it out. Compared to using a laptop it’s pretty clunky. I’m used to advancing songs with a USB foot switch. And you have to record everything into it in real time. That’s the deal breaker. I recorded them as I was practicing so time well spent but! And making multi track recordings?!!? But I have them there as emergency back up if laptop died. Possibly there’s multi track recorders that are capable of playing files from a DAW. Otherwise this is totally a step backwards in technology for me.  

Your setup sounds spot-on for solo and group performances, especially considering the challenges of limited time and no sound check at community events. I completely get the simplicity angle – less fuss means more time for playing.

The split stereo mix with bass on the left and drums/keyboards on the right is a clever solution, especially for your bluegrass, folk, and blues-oriented music with acoustic guitars, mandolin, and banjo. It's fantastic how you've tailored your setup to accommodate different scenarios and preferences.

And that Radial DI box for laptops and iPads, with the mono toggle, seems like a handy tool, particularly for shows with a sound guy. Your approach to sending bass to a channel and auxiliary it to a bass amp, while keeping drums/keyboards low in the PA or in in-ears, makes a lot of sense. It's all about finding that sweet spot for each element in the mix. Happy picking!

Edited December 1, 2023 by Bridget Murphy

[Spieler]

If you want to adjust the volume of your mp3 files, try the mp3Gain program. 
It's free and has worked reliably for me for many years. You can adjust entire folders or normalize individual files to a predefined value.

[John Vere]

2 hours ago, Spieler said:

If you want to adjust the volume of your mp3 files, try the mp3Gain program. 
It's free and has worked reliably for me for many years. You can adjust entire folders or normalize individual files to a predefined value.

Normalization can work but it only deals with peak levels and not loudness. 
Loudness is measured in LUFS or RMS. So therefore the need to use analyzing tools to see where each song is at. 
It really depends on the material. 
A classical piece normalized to -3 db will sound very quiet compared to a heavier compressed rock song normalized the same. 
And nobody should be bothering with MP3 files for backing tracks. Why? 

[Spieler]

As far as I understand it, the band works with mp3 files. Mp3Gain adjusts the RMS level of the tracks. I think if the mp3 bitrate is high enough, it should also work as a backing track.

[Max Arwood]

Normalizing might not level tracks if their are any high peaks in the tracks. If the songs are kind of level with no big peaks the mp3 level might help. Like John said there could be problems if it contains dissimilar information or loud peaks.
 

like John said again why would you use mp3s?
 

Automatic leveling is just guessing. The ear is the only way to adjust them correctly.
 

This contains  a compressor and a limiter. This is 2 processes the help “fix” those peaks. After this is done the  normalizer will process the files making it a little more accurate than a normalizer alone.

Did I say it’s Free? You should give it a try!

https://www.videohelp.com/software/The-Levelator
 

Edited December 3, 2023 by Max Arwood

[John Vere]

It’s like this. If you play in a real band then you spend hours and hours rehearsing and refining your material so you sound good. 

I treat my backing tracks the same way. If it takes a little  extra resources or time to make them top quality why would I not want to do that?  
 

[RICHARD HUTCHINS]

Can I interject one of my reliably dumb questions John? Why not MP3's? Are you suggesting a WAV file instead due to the quality?

[DeeringAmps]

On 12/2/2023 at 8:42 PM, John Vere said:

If it takes a little  extra resources or time to make them top quality why would I not want to do that?

 

43 minutes ago, RICHARD HUTCHINS said:

Why not MP3's?

I started out with my “tracks” on cassette, then CDs, then patching the iPhone into the PA. The tracks are recorded 48/24, but exported as 320 MP3’s, then the phone “dumbs” them down to 240; I think. The audience could care less, but maybe that’s a reflection of my performance?🙃

t

Edited December 13, 2023 by DeeringAmps

[RICHARD HUTCHINS]

Hi again,

Finally got some time to look at this, and today I bought YouLean Loudness Meter. I have some VERY basic questions on using it, if anyone can help that would be great, as I have a gig next week and I am really short of time, so trawling for answers is a luxury I cant afford, it takes me forever to work things out as many of my posts will confirm !

Okay, I purchased the Pro Version on Johns advice.

1. How do I get a desktop shortcut? I loaded it into my Plugins and its there in CW but I cant seem to find and drag the exe file to my desktop. Reason for asking is I assume I can then drag the backing track MP3's onto it and check loudness levels.

 

2. If the  tracks are all over the place in terms of relative loudness ( I know this to be likely)  do I open the original tracks in CW and use the Master fader to adjust the overall loudness with the Youlean working as a plugin? And then re export them as MP3's?

 

Rich

[Glenn Stanton]

use your search to find the desktop app. then create a shortcut on your desktop 🙂

pg 13 of the manual. or use the File -> Analyze File 

[Glenn Stanton]

part 2- yes - re-open the project and adjust levels and re-export. if you have exported as a WAV file, you could use other tools to adjust the volume (like SoundForge,  Acoustica, etc etc) and export as MP3

[RICHARD HUTCHINS]

1 hour ago, Glenn Stanton said:

part 2- yes - re-open the project and adjust levels and re-export. if you have exported as a WAV file, you could use other tools to adjust the volume (like SoundForge,  Acoustica, etc etc) and export as MP3

"Adjust the levels" ok, do you mean the overall level on the master or ALL of the levels? The latter would be time consuming for 40 backing tracks.

[RICHARD HUTCHINS]

Making the adjustments with the Master fader doesn't seem to alter the average LUFS on the meter at all?