Backing tracks; betting them to an equal level for gigs

[RICHARD HUTCHINS]

Hi all,

I am setting up 40 songs with backing tracks from karaoke version. I edit them in cakewalk and export them for our gigs as MP3's. Is there a good way to ensure the finished songs are at roughly the same level? I noticed quite a variation in the output volume for some songs. Is there a plug in out there? Or a decent tutorial...? All new to me I'm afraid!

[Glenn Stanton]

one method is to setup a volume leveler (like concrete limiter etc) to set max levels and even the dynamic range (reasonably) and then a measuring tool to set the overall levels. for example: using a limiter (or maximizer) (i use Ozone) and a metering solution which can report on the overall loudness as well as peaks and dynamic range (i use Insight but there are YouLean and other metering products) to set the overall level (in this case - the "integrated loudness" which is the sum of all), short term (longer than peaks but maybe several seconds worth), momentary loudness (peaks generally), and the dynamic range (loudest vs softer sounds).

so pick a level - for backing tracks in live situations - say -11LUFS (loudness units full scale = ~db) and a dynamic range of say 3-5db would (imho) give you enough loudness for those tracks and not have them disappear during lower levels (your volume control).

your material will dictate the dynamic range but for live popular forms of music, you probably want it flatter than wider (whereas in a recording you might want it more dramatic)

one other aspect - if the source material is WAV, maybe export as WAV and play as WAV. MP3 (and other lossy formats can change the mix somewhat because of the masking algorithms used to compress the file). and so an MP3 version could have unexpected changes due to that effect whereas the WAV file tends to preserve the mix "more correctly".

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by Glenn Stanton

[John Vere]

I’m your man!  I just redid over 200 tracks last winter. 

The ultimate secret weapon is the You Lean Loudness meter. To save a lot of time get the paid version. This allows you to get a reading in seconds. The free version requires playing the file in real time. 
The reason i say this is your most important statistic is what the LUFS are for the song. This is the all important perceived volume. Exactly what you are trying to do. 

So I choose-14 LUFS at -1.0 db peak level as my target. 

This alone will bring your songs into the ballpark.
But there’s a little more to it as the songs need to be mixed with things like drums and bass always being proportional. 
My solution to this is I always use the same exact instruments and pre sets. Ample P Bass and Addictive Drums.

I also always use the exact same velocities for these. 

Next I use 3 or 4 Sub buses. Bass, Drums and Keyboards. I rarely use VST guitar or Horns but if so it gets a bus. 

Next I have the Loudmax brick wall limiter on the master and the You Lean meter underneath.  
I set the Loud Max at -1.0 db. 

Because the bass is the same VST set with same volume and velocity it is always seems to be at about-4 db. Perfect. 
The drums are about the same.
Now keyboard stuff is always different so I mix it until it is where I want it. 
Now check the You Lean meter and it’s usually showing I’m good. If it’s too hot and the loud max is showing gain reduction I back off on the keyboard first. 
I export these at 48/16  wave and drag them into YouLean meter to test.
The end result is I never need to adjust volume at gigs . It was time well spent. 
I made a video once I’ll see if I can find it. 

Edited November 8, 2023 by John Vere

[Craig Anderton]

I have only two things to add to the excellent advice in the previous two posts. Regarding True Peak, for material with an LUFS reading above -14.0, I'd recommend -2.0 for the True Peak max to avoid distortion when transcoding to MP3.

On a related subject, I use Loudness metering to balance preset levels in amp sims and synths/samplers. This doesn't matter so much for recording, but it puts you in the ballpark for live performance.

[RICHARD HUTCHINS]

Well as usual thanks guys for taking time to give full replies, much appreciated. I am going to digest the info and decide on a way forward but with all of this I'm confident I can sort it. If I don't add to this  post with more questions,  it means its been a success, I hope that makes sense.? 

Thanks again, I've said it before but this is an excellent forum.

[John Vere]

2 hours ago, Craig Anderton said:

. Regarding True Peak, for material with an LUFS reading above -14.0, I'd recommend -2.0 for the True Peak max to avoid distortion when transcoding to MP3.

Another reason for not using MP3 files unless needed for the internet.  But that said I do bulk convert in Gold Wave to MP3 that are 48 / 320 kbps. I upload these to Sound Click so I can listen on my Cell phone via Headphones. I can't hear any distortion so possibly it depends on the convertor and the sample /bit rates. Example I never use Cakewalks MP3 export. 

@RICHARD HUTCHINS I couldn't find the exact video I think I removed it last year, but this video has a lot of the same concepts demoed. 

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by John Vere

[Craig Anderton]

1 hour ago, John Vere said:

I can't hear any distortion so possibly it depends on the convertor and the sample /bit rates.

I'm glad you brought this up! Having transcoding distortion from too high peaks is not like the distortion you're used to hearing. What made me super aware of this was when I was mixing down a song that was going to be transcoded with AAC for YouTube. There was this strange kind of very low-level "background fuzz" that made me think perhaps there were undersampled instruments, artifacts from not oversampling amp sims, that sort of thing. I spent way too much time trying to isolate the tracks that were causing the "problems." But the problem was that I had not paid enough attention to leaving sufficient True Peak headroom. Once I did, the weird background fuzz went away completely.

[John Vere]

@Craig Anderton  Yes it is a big concern and I think one of the reasons I chose-1.0 db was years ago there were many debates on this topic. It was one of those everybody had their opinions endless tail chase debates kinda like sample rate  or analog vs digital debates.  So I took the middle ground. 
Truth is I had been normalizing all my wave files to -0.2 db  using Wave Lab for a long time. This was in the CD and DAT days.  After I learned how “wrong” this was I took a close listen to those files and never really heard anything wrong?
Much later on  I dropped them in You Lean and most were dead on 0 db.  But nothing was a +db. 
And then began my using the BT brickwall set at -1.0 db. Later using You Lean I learned that most of those masters were very close to -0.1 db?   I then tested a dozen or more free Limiters and the Loudmax and Boost11 won the shoot out. Set at -1.0 Loud max at worst is -0.8.  

I apologize to Richard for our geeky side track but this is what we do.

For your backing tracks the peak limit is not as mission critical but the LUFS definitely are . 

This latest batch sound way better than my last go round pre Covid. And people noticed. I’m still performing at 70 and I need all the help I can get so perfect backing tracks are worth the extra time and effort.  Nothing I can do about arthritis and my guitar playing but the rest of the band is in top form now. And they don’t miss practice or get drunk at gigs.  
And oddly enough I get paid the same as a 3 piece band. But I do share this with the band and I’m going to treat them to a new computer. 

Edited November 9, 2023 by John Vere

[Craig Anderton]

Another fine point is that true peak readings are approximations. Different programs will give different results. They'll be close, but not exact.

1 hour ago, John Vere said:

Truth is I had been normalizing all my wave files to -0.2 db  using Wave Lab for a long time. This was in the CD and DAT days.  After I learned how “wrong” this was I took a close listen to those files and never really heard anything wrong?

I don't have a definitive answer, but if the material was heavily limited or maximized, then normalizing to -0.2 dB was basically normalizing a square wave. If two samples are on a straight horizontal line, then there isn't the potential to create something that arcs over 0.0 upon reconstruction. The main reason a lot of people normalized to a value under 0 with CDs was because if there was a certain number of successive samples that hit zero, CD manufacturers assumed it resulted from clipping, and would reject the master. Normalizing to -0.1 wouldn't let that happen.

Transcoding to MP3 is different, because of the data omission process. It's tough to describe the distortion, except I'd say it's fuzzy instead of spikey, and very low level.

[RICHARD HUTCHINS]

Hi again!

Firstly, in response to the tech stuff above, " yeah, what he said, "! 😄 Over my head but interesting and worth an effort to try to understand.

 

Anyhow, back to the humble land of the novice; whilst working through all of this I hit another problem and I am sure its something silly, but would appreciate help? Basically I download the backing tracks from karaoke version, individually i.e. bass, drums, vox etc. and copy them to a cakewalk file. I then convert them to mono so I can use them live. 

But when I play it back in cakewalk, the  signal  seems to be just on the left side, i.e. when I pan the master fader to the right 100% no sound, pan to left full sound. Why is this and what am I doing wrong here? ( see screenshot)

 

Apologies in advance for the rather basic questions.

[Glenn Stanton]

it looks like you have stereo tracks and master buss and the waveforms look to be stereo - so maybe somehow your conversion to "mono" didn't make the tracks mono? but just one side of stereo or split mono?

[John Vere]

Don’t do anything in Cakewalk. Just choose Mono when you export. 
Question? What are you using for playback at the gig that requires a mono MP3 file?  Just wondering at that choice? 

[RICHARD HUTCHINS]

Ah! The default export option in CW is stereo so I will try that thanks.

 

So far, I haven't chosen a setup, still rehearsing. But I saw a web site video on you tube that recommended mono files unless you have separate outputs from the iPad. I think because sometimes there are two harmonies on one track on karaoke version,  in stereo, so you would lose one unless it was bounced to mono.

On the other hand they could tell me the iPad was made of cheese and I wouldn't really know the difference, as I am so inexperienced in this type of thing. Much happier just playing my guitar and not getting bogged down in tech stuff, but of course that will get me nowhere except my bedroom! I'm very thankful for forums like this to say the least.

[TVR PRODUCTIONS]

Thanks for this informative thread. It is timely as I am planning on putting a few different shows that feature myself (guitar) and a friend (bass) with backing tracks that I create from scratch. I do not want it to sound too Karaoke.  So, we are sticking with songs that are not so over the top crazy that would look too weird with two guys up there.  I was going to do it the way I used to do it with a mono track on one side that goes to the PA system and the other side would be a click track that I would hear.  But, I hate the idea of being married to a mix that I made in my basement that may sound way off in  a venue. So, my idea now is to get some type of digital multitrack recorder that  can have separate tracks (drums, piano, synth, backing vox, etc). I could output them in stereo at the venue (the click would go to another bus to my ear phones).  I would then still have the ability to change the volume levels as needed in a particular room.  Has anyone ever tried this. Of course, I would need to make an emergency copy to another device using backing tracks on one side and click onthe other like I used to, in case the multitrack goes kaput during a live show.   Gonna be challenging, especially one songs with a third voice that I will need to record with the backing tracks and having to blend with our two voices.  

[JnTuneTech]

As to the original post topic, I find that LUFS software, as mentioned above, is probably the quickest modern method to achieving more consistent output levels. But - I still tend to shoot for "previewing" a set, or at least any newer tracks first before showtime, from a few places in the venue. -When possible of course, Otherwise the LUFS method is probably very good insurance that your loudness levels between tracks will be fairly consistent. -Still, I find that as always, the actual mileage varies, any live mixing engineer will tell you to beware that audio environments change on the fly during a gig, and that's why we still often need live mixing to be adaptable.

Which leads to the slightly off-post answer to @TVR PRODUCTIONS - What you describe is indeed a variation on live gigging many of us have or do use. My basic recommendation, in modern times, is to use a system that allows for adjusting the backing tracks or stems in real time, and having a helpful assistant to step in in case what you think you are hearing is not what is actually happening. -Sometimes we don't have that luxury though!

Also, since it has become more affordable, I try to use in-ear monitoring, and at least a 2 channel output device before your mains. -Now, I haven't used mono since the 80's since stereo mixing & amplification has become so ubiquitous, but really the concept works the same in any case. 1 mix for the mains, and a separate mix for the monitors. The mains don't get the cues, etc. -I have used my DAW & sound interface for that exact setup for quite some time, but yes you can do it with standalone digital mixer/recorders as well of course.

Just remember to do as much LUFS balancing & pre-show run through as possible, using some of the excellent info in the other posts here, otherwise trying to mix it & play it live can be worse than going with a known pre-mixed show in many cases! At least, that is my experience thus far.

(P.S. - Don't forget folks, you can edit spelling, etc. on your topics & posts. And it won't be a waste if that helps searches in the future!)

Edited December 7, 2023 by JnTuneTech
clarification...

[John Vere]

Where as I agree that having stems is an option it makes for a way more complicated set up. 
And most people like me who play solo with tracks are also our own song tech. Last thing I need is to be fussing with a mixer.
I play the odd show at community events where we get 45 minutes and no sound check. The more complicated your set up the fewer songs you get to play. 

@TVR PRODUCTIONS What type of music do you play? you sound like all you would really need is drum tracks and possibly some keyboards.  So stereo or split stereo might be all you need.
 

My method gives me options of mixing a stereo. Mono or a split stereo Exported  wave files. 
I also play with 1 or 2 more musicians sometimes and we like to downplay the backing tracks. The music is more bluegrass, Folk and Blues oriented. Acoustic guitars, Mandolin and Banjo.  So we only really need bass. 
So I made a split stereo mix with Bass on left and Drums and keyboards in the right. I play Bass on a few songs. Solution. 

I have a Radial DI box that is made for laptops and iPads. 
It is a must have and a key feature is it has a Mono toggle for shows with a sound  guy.  

But we mostly do our own sound. 
We send the Bass to one channel of the mixer and Auxiliary it to a Bass amp. 
The drums and keyboards go to the PA but we keep that down. It will mostly go to our in ears or floor monitors. Why use a click track?? I’d hate that. The drums are there to keep us in sync but the bass is the driving force and keeps us kicking along. 

When I play bass I simply mute the Track Bass channel and unmute my bass which is in another channel. 

My solo act is different depending on event. I do shows with a mix of my originals and covers that fit in.  As well as I do parties and dances playing cover tunes. 
Those I use full stereo mixes and I personally don’t find it that hard to set up that mix in the studio. I’ve never felt the need to mix it live. How many hometown weekend warriors have you heard with a perfect mix?  The punters don’t care.  They just want to recognize the songs. 
I always test everything in the studio with the full PA set up exactly like it will be at the gig.  I just lower the volume accordingly. 
And yes, the last thing you want to sound like as a musician is Karaoke. Kill those harmonies. That sounds scary 😱

The using a multi track recording device is another option and the Zoom L8 is both a mixer and a 8 track recorder. As an experiment I loaded a whole set of stereo tracks to test it out. Compared to using a laptop it’s pretty clunky. I’m used to advancing songs with a USB foot switch. And you have to record everything into it in real time. That’s the deal breaker. I recorded them as I was practicing so time well spent but! And making multi track recordings?!!? But I have them there as emergency back up if laptop died. Possibly there’s multi track recorders that are capable of playing files from a DAW. Otherwise this is totally a step backwards in technology for me.  

Edited November 11, 2023 by John Vere

[RICHARD HUTCHINS]

Hi John

Of course as a novice I wont attempt arguing with these very salient points. Except maybe to offer my two penn'orth worth;

" Why use a click track?" I do Beatles songs, and some have gaps with just Vox until the drums come back in so its nice to have something to follow and then come back in to the song on time. 

 

"Kill those harmonies" Again, playing Beatles songs harmonies are simply everything and whilst I can sing after a fashion,  I am on a different planet to the mop tops, who were all three great singers in their own right. So I either stay silent or get some help!

 

Just my own point of view obvs 🙂

[John Vere]

Got it.
The alternative is I use the “ click track” in the stops either with just a loud hi hat or even a kick drum.  

And for Harmonies you can’t beat a TC Voice live pedal. My first song of the night is often All my Loving and the voice live works great for that type of song. 

Here’s the sales pitch.
I play a lot of acoustic guitar gigs and so I bought the Voice live Acoustic . Your vocal mike and guitar go directly to the unit. It has 2 XLR outs so it acts as a DI for my guitar. 
Then it has the best guitar tuner I’ve ever used. It has hi quality processing for both guitars and vocals. The guitar effects are static and once set stay the same. But for vocals you can not only set up the type of harmonies but create the perfect effect chain with reverb delay and ? 
Another feature is it can do real time pitch correction of your vocals. I find if I add about 35% blend it sounds like I’m a pro.  This is the best thing for me as I get older and my stamina is not what it was for singing for 2 hours. 
When I play dances I play electric into an amp. But the harmonies need a feed from a guitar to work properly. So feed it from an auxiliary send on the mixer. 

The hardest part is it’s at my feet and you need to look down to toggle the harmonies on and off . It’s way to easy to step on the wrong switch. 
Then not only is it covering both my guitar and vocal it has a Aux in you can feed the backing track into and mix that in the headphone output that I use for my in ear monitors. I only wear one. You could actually use it as a stand alone mixer at a solo gig with the different options of what comes out of the Outputs and the headphone jacks.  
 
It is one more thing to hook up so I don’t usually take it to walk on gigs and my last dance I left it at home because I was excited about using the Zoom L8 and it’s built in effects.  I missed having the harmonies but the dance floor stayed busy anyway.  

Edited November 11, 2023 by John Vere

[Glenn Stanton]

the Voice products are very nice - one thing i've noted from different people using them - if you do not have good pitch, turn off the harmonizer 🙂 but i've some friends using these who do have great pitch and man oh man, the harmonies are amazing. and as John noted - blend in the pitch corrections.

one addition i forgot to mention wrt levels - the Expose 2 app is very nice (not sure if it's still free or not) but  you can drag a bunch of tracks onto it and get a rough estimate  on the levels, eq and LR balance etc and compared to "standard" for streaming, CD, etc.

and get text content about the track as well as export the full set of results into a text file.

EXPOSE 2 | Audio Quality Control Application (masteringthemix.com)

https://www.masteringthemix.com/products/expose-2

Edited November 11, 2023 by Glenn Stanton
adding download info

[John Vere]

Yes the Voice live will really sound brutal if fed bad data. I had to suffer through an hour this at a gig I was doing sound for. This idiot had just bought the pedal and actually fired the female vocalists they had used in the past. He left it going thought the whole gig. I went up and informed him of his error after the second song but he carried on. And he had the harmonies maxed out so it was this digital nightmare sound . 
You need to spend quality time with them and less is best. I find that if I’m 3” away from the mike this almost makes the harmonies disappear. They definitely jump out more when you get closer. So I have some control over that. But I only turn them on when needed in the song and only a for few songs that work really well. I don’t think it draws attention this way.  Mostly I want it for all the other features. 

Edited November 11, 2023 by John Vere