Writing Rests in PRV

[Stephen Power]

I've started to add notes directly in the Piano Roll View, rather than play them in, for some tunes such as Christmas Carols. This immediately brought up 2 issues:

1. Should I leave a gap (e.g. 1/16th 'square') after one note ends and before the next one starts? I started doing this, and I can't hear a 'gap' in the melody between notes.

2. If (1) is correct, then how do I write a whole rest, for example? Perhaps leave 4 blank squares between the previous and next note? This seems a lot, though.

Advice on how to write in notes and also write rests in the PRV is very welcome, and thank you in advance.

[57Gregy]

I've never had to write rests in, they just appear when there is a gap between notes, either played or written, based on the Snap settings.

[JnTuneTech]

It seems like you may be confusing 2 MIDI note entry methods. Rests are a musical notation, and in Cakewalk represented in Staff View. They do not have a MIDI entry in PRV. But yes, you could technically then create "gaps" in PRV entries to the same effect, programmatically. -Neither of which may be performing as you expect though.

As to your experiences with notes entered on the PRV (or anywhere) seeming to sound longer than the time you put them in on the grid - I would look into whether the instrument you are sequencing plays the notes based on the timing (and velocity, etc.) that you send from the track, or perhaps in fact only uses note on messages, etc., effectively so that notes hold (or not) for their own timing and what have you. -There are also other considerations to be included in that category, such as whether you also have a hold (pedal) command already in effect, etc., so do check that too.

For reference - yes, creating a "gap" in the PRV note entries would most typically then create a rest in the Staff View, but again, if your instrument does not play notes with absolute note-on - off responses, that "gap" would not necessarily be honored on playback.

[57Gregy]

Right. I should have written that. There are no 'rests' in the PRV.
If you're hearing the note play past the visible end of the note it might be because the patch has a built-in reverb or maybe there is a sustain pedal event, which also wouldn't be visible in the PRV.

[Promidi]

Maybe the patch has a release time that needs to be shortened. How you do that is entirely dependent on the patch and the synth used.

[Byron Dickens]

7 hours ago, Kerryman said:

1. Should I leave a gap (e.g. 1/16th 'square') after one note ends and before the next one starts? I started doing this, and I can't hear a 'gap' in the melody between notes.

That is a function of the instrument, not a function of the PRV.

 

Aside from that, you can't put rests in the PRV because you don't need to. If there isn't a note, then there's nothing to play. In other words, a rest.

[John Vere]

Just a heads up. If what you are looking for are midi versions of traditional music like Christmas songs then save your self a lot of unnecessary work and download them. They are generally free. 

 

Edited June 23, 2023 by JohnnyV

[Stephen Power]

19 hours ago, JnTuneTech said:

As to your experiences with notes entered on the PRV (or anywhere) seeming to sound longer than the time you put them in on the grid - I would look into whether the instrument you are sequencing plays the notes based on the timing (and velocity, etc.)....

 

I haven't had that 'experience' and I didn't mention it in my post, but thanks for the extra advice.

[Stephen Power]

Not sure if I explained myself properly in the OP. Actually, I'm fairly sure I didn't,  given the replies.  I'll have another go...

In music (if not midi), there are sometimes timed silences between the last note (or 'event' if you're speaking 'midi') and the next one. These are usually called 'rests', when written on a stave. 

I would like to apply some of these timed silences in the PRV for music I am copying from a stave. I have no idea how to do it.

Thanks for any advice.

Edited June 23, 2023 by Kerryman

[Stephen Power]

19 hours ago, 57Gregy said:

Right. I should have written that. There are no 'rests' in the PRV.
If you're hearing the note play past the visible end of the note it might be because the patch has a built-in reverb or maybe there is a sustain pedal event, which also wouldn't be visible in the PRV.

That's not what I'm hearing. I want to put a timed silence in the PRV between some notes. Please see my new post above.

Edited June 23, 2023 by Kerryman

[Glenn Stanton]

just as a test - if you play a note on your keyboard with the selected instrument, does the note stop when you lift off the key? or does it continue? if you play a couple of notes quickly on the keyboard, can you hear  them distinctly? if not, you need to adjust your instrument sound(s) to accommodate the short rests.

[Stephen Power]

1 hour ago, Glenn Stanton said:

just as a test - if you play a note on your keyboard with the selected instrument, does the note stop when you lift off the key? or does it continue? if you play a couple of notes quickly on the keyboard, can you hear  them distinctly? if not, you need to adjust your instrument sound(s) to accommodate the short rests.

Please read my post(s) again if you have any interest in helping me. Lots of music has a timed gap between one note ending and another starting. This is true of songs for one voice or orchestral pieces for dozens of instruments. I am simply trying to find a way to have Cakewalk put in those gaps, when I'm in the PRV.

[Base 57]

There are no rest icons in the PRV.

Blank spaces are rests.

[57Gregy]

2 hours ago, Base 57 said:

There are no rest icons in the PRV.

Blank spaces are rests.

That's what I meant.

"I can't hear a 'gap' in the melody between notes."

That implied that the notes are sounding beyond the visible end of the notes , leading us all down the 'sustain/reverb/long release' road. 🙂

You can set the duration of each note so it ends early, which you probably already know. You can drag the right edge of the note in PRV to the left so it's shorter and leaves a gap. I believe with Last Touched selected, you can have a note value as a default for entering in the staff and PRV.

Anyway, I think I understand what you mean now.

 

[JnTuneTech]

2 hours ago, Kerryman said:

Lots of music has a timed gap between one note ending and another starting. This is true of songs for one voice or orchestral pieces for dozens of instruments. I am simply trying to find a way to have Cakewalk put in those gaps, when I'm in the PRV.

Timed gaps in MIDI are one thing, but what instrument is playing is just as important, because if the instrument doesn't naturally follow the gap, it is not going to work in the way you seem to want. In fact, if you've worked in music notation and conducting, you will know that rests are handled differently by some instruments (and often hired players, but I digress).

In any case, MIDI - which is what the PRV is for entering & editing, is not the same thing as the actual note that an instrument plays. MIDI is only the command being sent to the instrument.

Some MIDI instruments, primarily percussion, include specific "mute" notes & rules, to create a gap, in a fashion natural for that instrument. In that case, you can specifically design when the previous note ends with a series of MIDI entries in the PRV. But in most cases, you simply must program the note length on the PRV according to the result it gets from the instrument it is sequencing. The answer to your specific question would have to be answered in context with the instrument you are programming. There are no generic rest entries for using the PRV MIDI note entry.  -Yes, you can create designed gaps, down to the tick, in MIDI commands. But that will not necessarily be what the instrument plays. Lots of music works like that. Creatively, you can work with your instrument, and the tools Cakewalk has, to figure out how to put in those gaps correctly, manually, that is the only single answer to your question that I can see.

[Base 57]

27 minutes ago, 57Gregy said:

That's what I meant.

I knew that.  I believe John, Byron and Glenn knew that too.

 

It just seemed like the OP was not grasping the concept and needed a more direct answer. 

[Glenn Stanton]

34 minutes ago, Base 57 said:

It just seemed like the OP was not grasping the concept and needed a more direct answer. 

or is trolling

[John Vere]

This thread  is one of those stumpers where the OP asks a question that to 99% of us who have used midi forever had to immediately think that the question must be worded wrong because it’s sort of obvious how gaps in midi PRV are created.

I’ve never actually seen the question, if I am understanding it correctly, has ever been asked! 

Take a piano note in PRV and don’t use the sustain pedal.  Hit three 1/4 notes in time with the metronome and don’t hit the 4th note. The 4th note is a rest ( I guess). Those notes will appear in the PRV as 3 rectangle blobs each starting on the  1/4 note grid and ending before the next blob starts. The 3rd blob will end before the 4th grid line. If it doesn’t then it’s not a 1/4 note. 
 

The only answer I can truly think of is if you want a rest, don’t draw or play a frgn  note there. 

Edited June 24, 2023 by JohnnyV

[chuckebaby]

Removed comments to avoid escalation.

 

[msmcleod]

There's no need to "write" rests in the PRV.  A rest is simply an absence of a note.

Take the following phrase:

This is how it looks like in the PRV:



The PRV works in exactly the same way as an old Piano Roll Player piano does...



... i.e. it only has holes for where it has to play a note, and the length of the hole is how long the note is held down.  It doesn't need to be told not to play one.   Drawing a note in the PRV is the exact equivalent of the holes in a piano roll.

[John Vere]

I’m glad you posted those shots. I was going to but was too lazy. The player piano was my first experience with playing a piano back in 1959. My neighbour had one.  I was fascinated by how it worked . Notice the sustain CC on the far left?
Of course the holes( notes) you are looking at aren’t the ones playing but they printed the lyrics on the right side in sync. 
 

First time I saw a piano roll view ( Cubase?) I new exactly what it was and how it would work. It’s just sideways.