SOLVED: Sustain pedal for MIDI controller works in reverse

[Wojtek Stecyszyn]

Hi

I just got the Roland Edirol PCR M50 MIDI controller

I got my sustain pedal (not Roland)  it works but in reverse (sustain when not pressed, staccato when pressed).

I read that this is common for Roland to do it in reversed and there is nothing I can do with my pedal (no polarity reverse switch) and nothing with the MIDI controller (no possibility of changing the settings). 

So last hope is to try to reverse the value in Cakewalk settings - so the 0 will be 127 and 127 will become 0, but I dont know where to adjust it?

Please help.

 

...another option is to build a custom DIY sustain pedal with reversed polarity ... could be done but tweaking the setting s in CbB could be more easy solution

Thanks in advance.

Edited September 30, 2023 by Wojtek Stecyszyn

[Promidi]

Personally, I would simply purchase a sustain pedal that has a polarity switch, like the M-Audio SP-2

[User 905133]

Quote

• From the manual:
  • Controller [P1] and [P2] You can connect the appropriate type of pedals to these jacks and use them as controllers
  • HOLD
    • Connect a pedal switch to this jack and use it as a Hold pedal.
  • You can also assign MIDI messages to these controllers as desired.

If the range for CC64 is set from 0 to 127, can you change it to go from 127 to 0 (i.e., swap max and min values)?

Edited September 29, 2023 by User 905133

[John Bradley]

I don’t suppose power-cycling the midi controller while leaving the pedal attached helps?

My ancient Alesis Quadrasynth correctly works with pedals of either polarity by looking at the state of the pedal on power-up and calling that the default, un-sustained state.

[Wojtek Stecyszyn]

1 hour ago, User 905133 said:

If the range for CC64 is set from 0 to 127, can you change it to go from 127 to 0 (i.e., swap max and min values)?

I cant find any info on how to do it - it is like there is no possibility to do it. Ive been looking for this all day and there is no mention im manual or on any forum, nothing. I assume that this is not possible with this keyboard. But maybe inside Cakewalk?

[Wojtek Stecyszyn]

 

5 hours ago, Promidi said:

Personally, I would simply purchase a sustain pedal that has a polarity switch, like the M-Audio SP-2

If I wont find solution to use this pedal, then I will build my own custom DIY pedal. Its just a momentary switch (like a doorbell buton). It will be fun, It will be creative and cheaper   

 

[Wojtek Stecyszyn]

57 minutes ago, John Bradley said:

I don’t suppose power-cycling the midi controller while leaving the pedal attached helps?

My ancient Alesis Quadrasynth correctly works with pedals of either polarity by looking at the state of the pedal on power-up and calling that the default, un-sustained state.

Ive tried this method. Unfortunately does not work with this keyboard. But thanks for replaying.   

[David Baay]

In the mean time, the SustainFix MFX from Tencrazy should be able to reverse it for you. MFX can be applied in real-time at the output of a MIDI track (either while input monitoring or on playback), or they can be rendered into the clip by right-click > Process Effect > MIDI Effects.

https://www.tencrazy.com/gadgets/mfx/

 

[MisterX]

Before you build a custom DIY sustain pedal you may want to disassemble the existing one and check if there's room for changes inside. I recently changed the polarity of my Roland pedal by resoldering the "hot" cable to a different pad on the tiny PCB inside it (since there's no physical polarity switch on the pedal housing). It takes no more than 15 minutes. Plus half an hour for cleaning, if it's 20 years old, like mine

Edited September 29, 2023 by MisterX

[User 905133]

2 hours ago, Wojtek Stecyszyn said:

I cant find any info on how to do it - it is like there is no possibility to do it. Ive been looking for this all day and there is no mention im manual or on any forum, nothing. I assume that this is not possible with this keyboard. But maybe inside Cakewalk?

I took another look at the PCR M50 manual.  Sorry to say I don't think it allows for swapping min and max values for CCs. I also tried some MFX plug-ins and I don't have one that will let you do that.  Maybe someone else knows of an MFX plug-in that can do it.

Maybe this might work? Let's ask @Variorum.

BUT WAIT!!! Maybe CSMultiCompanderV2 will work:

 

Edited September 29, 2023 by User 905133

[Variorum]

CSMultiCompanderV2 can be used to reverse the Pedal (CC64) in real-time and playback if you set it up like this:

Select Ctrl Chng and  type 64 in the box below it. Drag the left node up to 127, drag the right node down to  0. The two nodes in the middle don't matter for this application.

Personally, I'd go for @MisterX's suggestion and rewire the thing 😎

[Wojtek Stecyszyn]

 

15 hours ago, David Baay said:

In the mean time, the SustainFix MFX from Tencrazy should be able to reverse it for you. MFX can be applied in real-time at the output of a MIDI track (either while input monitoring or on playback), or they can be rendered into the clip by right-click > Process Effect > MIDI Effects.

https://www.tencrazy.com/gadgets/mfx/

 

Thanks. Good to know that solution like this exist.

 

14 hours ago, MisterX said:

Before you build a custom DIY sustain pedal you may want to disassemble the existing one and check if there's room for changes inside. I recently changed the polarity of my Roland pedal by resoldering the "hot" cable to a different pad on the tiny PCB inside it (since there's no physical polarity switch on the pedal housing). It takes no more than 15 minutes. Plus half an hour for cleaning, if it's 20 years old, like mine

Such a brilliant idea! Thank you so much.

 

14 hours ago, User 905133 said:

I took another look at the PCR M50 manual.  Sorry to say I don't think it allows for swapping min and max values for CCs. I also tried some MFX plug-ins and I don't have one that will let you do that.  Maybe someone else knows of an MFX plug-in that can do it.

Maybe this might work? Let's ask @Variorum.

BUT WAIT!!! Maybe CSMultiCompanderV2 will work:

 

Thanks for your engagement. Much appreciated. 

 

7 hours ago, Variorum said:

CSMultiCompanderV2 can be used to reverse the Pedal (CC64) in real-time and playback if you set it up like this:

Select Ctrl Chng and  type 64 in the box below it. Drag the left node up to 127, drag the right node down to  0. The two nodes in the middle don't matter for this application.

Personally, I'd go for @MisterX's suggestion and rewire the thing 😎

Amazing tool. Thanks.

 

Thank you all. Your comments were very helpful. 

I guess the thread is closed. We know now that there is no way to change it on Roland side, bu thanks to you I have discovered other solutions.

I will reach for the hardware upgrade. I will try to rewire my pedal. If it wont work - then I will build my own  

Cheers!

[MisterX]

Please let us know what worked for you. BTW  does anyone know if is there's a (simple) way to teach a piano sustain pedal how to trigger FX bin (or individual plugins within it) on and off?

[Variorum]

4 hours ago, MisterX said:

BTW  does anyone know if is there's a (simple) way to teach a piano sustain pedal how to trigger FX bin (or individual plugins within it) on and off?

I suspect it would be possible with ACT... @azslow3 is the resident expert with that. Maybe he can give you a hint.

[azslow3]

17 hours ago, Variorum said:

I suspect it would be possible with ACT... @azslow3 is the resident expert with that. Maybe he can give you a hint.

I think AZ Controller is the only way (apart from directly programming own plug-in in C++...) which can be adopted for all possible cases. But how "simple" it is depends from the perception of simplicity, in other words that is not "one click for all imaginable situations". If interested (and ready to use AZ Controller), ask on my forum (www.azslow.com). Describe what exactly you want (f.e. "trigger FX bin of current track" or "temporarily disable FX bin for "Keyboard" track when pressed") and do you want completely disable the pedal as sustain or not (f.e. it is possible to make it triggering bin with stopped transport only, allowing using the pedal normally during playback or recording). I can make corresponding presets (for me that is quick), so you don't have to learn AZ Controller (that it not "simple").

Alternative (simple to use, but depending from the hardware and desired result can be not possible/hard to use) ways:

• MIDI shortcuts in CbB. It may be possible define pedal as "MIDI Shift", so when it is pressed normal keys trigger "command" (from the list of possible shortcuts)
• MIDI learn within FX. The way normally used for Guitar effects in CbB.
• "remote" learn for particular CbB control (possible when control in question has that option in the right click menu)
• using standard ACT plug-ins (f.e. "ACT MIDI" or "Generic surface").