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Zirrex

MIDI СС automation is a pain. We need to do something about it urgently.

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MIDI СС automation is a pain that kills all desire to work in Cakewalk. :(
Cakewalk has the best solution on the market in multi-instrumental MIDI editing mode.
But it's completely impossible to work with automation inside MIDI clips. :(

Studio One - has a line of automation.
Reaper has excellent scripts for quickly drawing different envelopes - it is even sometimes more convenient than the lines in Studio One

May have many times asked for something to do with it.
Please, developers, let's think together how we can better change this.
Happen again... Cakewalk has the best system on the market for working with multi-tools in a MIDI editor, but due to the inability to work properly with MIDI-CC automation, all this work is reduced to zero. 😞

The mandatory item that I would like to see is The reset of the MIDI CC after pressing "Stop" to the user-set values. This system is in the Reaper and it helps a lot in the work.

 

Cakewalk_2019-10-25_23-39-40.png

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I always apply automation to the audio track(s) that are associated with the midi synth, rather than to the midi tracks, after bouncing/freezing.

Bob Bone

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17 hours ago, Robert Bone said:

I always apply automation to the audio track(s) that are associated with the midi synth, rather than to the midi tracks, after bouncing/freezing.

Bob Bone

You must be using pretty basic automation then Bob ?  Volume  - panning..not a whole lot else you can automate after it's been bounced ?

I see you have Kontakt so do you not use CC automation to control articulations etc in certain instruments ?  

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MIDI CC automation inside the MIDI Clip very convenient tool for editing.
We edit the notes and edit the dynamics of the instrument without closing the editor.
 

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On 10/25/2019 at 9:55 PM, Zirrex said:

MIDI СС automation is a pain that kills all desire to work in Cakewalk. :(
Cakewalk has the best solution on the market in multi-instrumental MIDI editing mode.
But it's completely impossible to work with automation inside MIDI clips. :(

Studio One - has a line of automation.
Reaper has excellent scripts for quickly drawing different envelopes - it is even sometimes more convenient than the lines in Studio One

May have many times asked for something to do with it.
Please, developers, let's think together how we can better change this.
Happen again... Cakewalk has the best system on the market for working with multi-tools in a MIDI editor, but due to the inability to work properly with MIDI-CC automation, all this work is reduced to zero. 😞

The mandatory item that I would like to see is The reset of the MIDI CC after pressing "Stop" to the user-set values. This system is in the Reaper and it helps a lot in the work.

 

Cakewalk_2019-10-25_23-39-40.png

Rather than using the PRV, have you tried using the automation lanes on the MIDI track itself?

image.thumb.png.10e8794c9f4b30a5dd7d486303d23e47.png

Selecting MIDI from the dropdown brings up a dialog allowing you to select any MIDI CC you want, and you can then draw your envelopes in the same way that you can with automation on audio tracks.

 

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4 hours ago, CosmicDolphin said:

You must be using pretty basic automation then Bob ?  Volume  - panning..not a whole lot else you can automate after it's been bounced ?

I see you have Kontakt so do you not use CC automation to control articulations etc in certain instruments ?  

I was really just mainly referring to volume.  I record articulation changes on a separate midi track, as needed.  

If improvements to midi automation would benefit folks - I am all for it.  I just don't do a lot of that.

Bob Bone

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10 hours ago, msmcleod said:

Selecting MIDI from the dropdown brings up a dialog allowing you to select any MIDI CC you want, and you can then draw your envelopes in the same way that you can with automation on audio tracks.

Yes, but this is only for individual MIDI tracks.
I have an instrumental track. I don't want to create an additional track to record automation.
It's not convenient. I wrote above that when we open the MIDI editor (Piano roll) we can edit the notes and here we can edit the automation without closing the Piano Roll.
This is especially useful when editing multiple tracks at once.

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11 hours ago, Zirrex said:

I have an instrumental track. I don't want to create an additional track to record automation.

Edit Filter > Automation >  <synth name>  > <parameter> will allow automating applicable synth parameters in a simple instrument track.

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1 hour ago, David Baay said:

Edit Filter > Automation >  <synth name>  > <parameter> will allow automating applicable synth parameters in a simple instrument track.

Yes. But this is not a midi CC and this is not inside midi-clip. :) Some synthesizers have a lot of parameters to find them through such a menu. It's just unreal. It is easier to press W and start recording automation to appear the desired track with automation.
Try to understand me. :) Edit automation (midi CC) inside midi-clip when you edit the note. It's very convenient. When you work in a piano roll without opening an arrangement. 

Cakewalk_2019-10-29_02-38-17.png

Edited by Zirrex

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CC messages are not typically referred to as 'automation'.  So what you want is per-clip controller messages. Is it mainly that you want the messages to go with the clip when you move/copy it around?

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In preference menu, There is option to zero controllers on start. Have you unchecked that feature? That might explain controllers resetting to zero data.

Edited by Michael Warren
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7 hours ago, Michael Warren said:

In preference menu, There is option to zero controllers on start. Have you unchecked that feature? That might explain controllers resetting to zero data.

I know this. I talking about the other options. Drawing midi CC in Pian roll. :)

I have a few tracks.
Each has notes.
Each track has automation. The modulation wheel, which is responsible in this library for the dynamics of a musical instrument.
I choose a track, draw or record notes, then correct and further draw automation of the necessary parameters.
I open the left panel to correct the sound-ProChannle or other plugins.
All work takes place in Piano Roll. There are handy filters for tools. Autofocus, Autolock... 
The worst thing is that here there is a drawing automation to MIDI CC parameters.

I'm asking the developers to do something about it.
Perhaps make a new system - lines as done in Studio One or make new drawing tools.

Cakewalk_2019-10-29_13-42-59.png

Cakewalk_2019-10-29_13-40-28.png

Cakewalk_2019-10-29_13-53-50.png

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This is midi CC in Studio One 4.5
Very convenient system for drawing and editing. 
Convenient "Bookmarks" with parameters. You can make 1-2-10 lines for automation.
There is a convenient way to edit the envelope - not only a pencil, but also another tool.
No difficulties when you edit MIDI-СС automation, unlike the beloved Cakewalk.  🙂
I hope that someday we will see something similar, perhaps even better in Cakewalk. 

Studio_One_2019-10-29_17-08-08.png

Studio_One_2019-10-29_17-12-00.png

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This is a fascinating discussion.  I am used to "automation" done by turning knobs and moving sliders to record CC data as needed (per auditory bio-feedback).  I will have to check out doing CCs by drawing.  Thanks for raising the discussion of automation. It looks like it will open up new possibilities when I make the time to explore them.

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On 10/29/2019 at 8:35 AM, Zirrex said:

No difficulties when you edit MIDI-СС automation, unlike the beloved Cakewalk.  🙂

The only real 'difficulty' with Cakewalk in achieving the same result is that MIDI automation envelopes are only available in MIDI tracks, so you'll have to split your beloved Instrument track. It seems that just addressing this one limitation would go a long way toward  addressing your needs, and shouldn't take a huge development effort; all the necessary functionally is already in place.  Sure the flexibility of bezier curves is cool, but it shouldn't be a showstopper not to have that. Was Studio One  unusable when it didn't yet have that?

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5 hours ago, David Baay said:

The only real 'difficulty' with Cakewalk in achieving the same result is that MIDI automation envelopes are only available in MIDI tracks

This problem deeper.
I repeat...
It is convenient to draw and edit automation INSIDE MIDI clip. Not in main arrange, inside the MIDI editor.
Should be useful tools for this purpose.
You should start with small things - make at least the lines as was done in Studio One.

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Probably wasting my time, but that Studio One screenshot looks a lot like an Inline PRV with automation lanes under it: 

1973844647_CCLanesUnderInlinePRV.thumb.png.2327a2c7d2a0c798c1993c2d1d1d24ef.png

 

Edited by David Baay
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4 hours ago, David Baay said:

Probably wasting my time, but that Studio One screenshot looks a lot like an Inline PRV with automation lanes under it

Yes. It looks like...
But It's not inside the MIDI slip. :- ) And you need to create a separate MIDI track for this.
To work with notes and at the same time to correct automation it is not absolutely convenient. It is not possible to work with multi-instruments in one Piano Roll.
All you need to do is work with MIDI CC lines inside MIDI clips. Or make handy tools for drawing lines. At least do as in Cubase.

Repeat once again....
Cakewalk has a very handy Piano Roll among all DAW and especially for working with multiple tracks, instruments. But the most inconvenient among all DAW way to edit MIDI СС inside the piano roll.

Why make a very convenient Piano Roll and such a terrible way of drawing MIDI CC.

It looks like a cool and beautiful car, but without an engine. We need a good engine. :)

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On 11/1/2019 at 4:42 AM, Zirrex said:

Why make a very convenient Piano Roll and such a terrible way of drawing MIDI CC.

For one thing because MIDI CC messages are, in fact, discrete events, not a continuous curve as implied by an automation line. When using automation, you have little or no control over the density of controller messages being sent (not sure whether or how Studio One addresses this). Not such a big deal when working with soft synths, but when working with a multi-timbral hardware modules on a single MIDI port, it can be very important to minimize the event density by using no more than the necessary number of control changes to get the desired change in sound.

That's not to say a new approach isn't possible, just that there are reasons for the way it's currently implemented.

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