Midi / Audio Latency

[Emanu3le85]

 I have different latencies,

when I apply recording, all the automations start very late which does not happen in playback.

when I record audio from an internal VST or an external synth the recording will start a few seconds early.

latencymon does not detect any latency problems, I tried to deactivate all the fx, activate the dc compensation, change the buffer size but nothing seems to change

What else?

Edited April 24 by Emanu3le85

[David Baay]

Since you have a number of posts not mentioning this problem, I take it's a new problem and/or project-specific...? Are you still using the MOTU M4 for both audio (presumablyin ASIO mode) and MIDI input or are you using a USB MIDI keyboard?  What buffer size and what reported input/output/round-trip latency in CbB? What plugins have been recently added to the project and where? If it's due to a PDC-inducing plugin, enabling the PDC Override button in the Mix module will only work if the offending plugin isn't on the track that you're monitoring or on a bus in its path to the output. Bypassing all FX  by the button in the Mix module should eliminate PDC but you might have to toggle playback to reset it.

[Emanu3le85]

22 minutes ago, David Baay said:

Dato che hai diversi post che non menzionano questo problema, presumo che si tratti di un problema nuovo e/o specifico del progetto...? Stai ancora utilizzando il MOTU M4 sia per l'audio (presumibilmente in modalità ASIO) che per l'ingresso MIDI o stai utilizzando una tastiera MIDI USB? Quale dimensione del buffer e quale latenza di input/output/andata e ritorno è stata segnalata in CbB? Quali plugin sono stati aggiunti di recente al progetto e dove? Se è dovuto a un plug-in che induce PDC, abilitare il pulsante PDC Override nel modulo Mix funzionerà solo se il plug-in incriminato non si trova sulla traccia che stai monitorando o su un bus nel suo percorso verso l'output. Bypassare tutti gli FX tramite il pulsante nel modulo Mix dovrebbe eliminare il PDC ma potrebbe essere necessario attivare/disattivare la riproduzione per reimpostarlo.

yes I have several posts on latency but each one is specific to its own problem, I always use the Motu M4 and midi kbd: behringher u control

Asio

sample rate 48000, 24bit, buffer 512

(file system) enable read/write cache "disabled"

I/O buffer 256 playback/256 rec

recording latency reported in CbB = 1286 (even moving the offset manually does not change anything in the recording)

I have the checkbox "remove DC offset during recording"

I don't have any particular CPU-heavy plugins

[David Baay]

Most people would find the latency with that buffer size troubling. I generally run a 64-sample buffer while recording, and never more than 128, especially when input-monitoring  hardware synths. But you mentioned sync problems on the order of "a few seconds" which is a lot even for a PDC problem. The only thing I know of that has ever caused that much of a problem is some interface drivers not playing nice with Metronome Count-in enabled. Try recording without it. If it makes a difference and you have not had this issue before, a reboot might cure it. Also make sure to zero out any Timing Offset you might have tried in Sync and Caching (not to be confused with the Manual Offset for audio record latency compensation).

 

Edited April 24 by David Baay

[Emanu3le85]

12 minutes ago, David Baay said:

Most people would find the latency with that buffer size troubling. I generally run a 64-sample buffer while recording, and never more than 128, especially when input-monitoring  hardware synths. But you mentioned sync problems on the order of "a few seconds" which is a lot even for a PDC problem. The only thing I know of that has ever caused that much of a problem is some interface drivers not playing nice with Metronome Count-in enabled. Try recording without it. If it makes a difference and you have not had this issue before, a reboot might cure it. Also make sure to zero out any Timing Offset you might have tried in Sync and Caching (not to be confused with the Manual Offset for audio record latency compensation).

 

I've been testing for about one year with 2 laptops, an Asus consumer and an MSI Katana gaming, but nothing has changed, still using the motu m4, I have always seen the same latencies on every PC on every occasion.

I believe at this point that the sound card has problems if you tell me that the 512 buffer is too much for most people.

I'll stop with the posts about latency, but I don't understand the solution thank you all the same

[John Vere]

My conclusion is that Motu is a Mac oriented company and they don't spend any time developing their audio drivers and Software for Windows. 

On my older Computer which was W10 I had to use 512 buffer of suffer glitches. On my new W11 there's a slight performance improvement and I can use 256. My projects are ridiculously simple. I don't go near any plug ins that are know CPU hogs. 

My most complicated project will be on the edge of glitching using the Motu as an interface @ 256 but if I switch to my Zoom L8 I can lower my buffers to 128 and even 64. Same computer, same projects. 

I took some screen shots so you can compare your settings. Pay attention to the box in sync and caching make sure the Motu shows there. Sometimes invasive drivers show up there and you need to delete those in Reg Edit. 

Also make sure you have the latest ASIO driver from the Motu website. 

 

Edited April 25 by John Vere

[Bill Phillips]

6 hours ago, John Vere said:

My conclusion is that Motu is a Mac oriented company and they don't spend any time developing their audio drivers and Software for Windows. 

That was the case for me with my achent firewire 828 mkll. MAC drivers were updated more frequently and much longer than those for Windows. 

[David Baay]

Personally, I think it's n urban myth that MOTU don't know how to write good drivers for Windows. They've been shipping Windows-compatible hardware and drivers since the early '90s. I have a MOTU MIDI Express XT interface from that era that still works fine under windows 10, and my MOTU PCIe-424/2408mkii interface runs great at 64 samples and even 32 if the project is light. Where interfaces mainly differ is in how much hardware/firmware/bus latency is added to the buffer latency, and that's where the MOTU shines because it's PCIe instead of USB. Pops/clicks/dropouts are all about whether the DAW application can get the buffer of audio processed before the interface driver requests it and Windows responding in a timely manner to the interrupt request to fill the buffer (that's where the Deferred Procedure Call latency - what LatencyMon measures - comes into the picture), and that's where you need start diagnosing problems with streaming performance . No doubt there are some dodgy ASIO drivers out there, but they're not coming from companies with the expertise and reputation of MOTU.

[User 905133]

24 minutes ago, David Baay said:

Personally, I think it's n urban myth that MOTU don't know how to write good drivers for Windows. They've been shipping Windows-compatible hardware and drivers since the early '90s. I have a MOTU MIDI Express XT interface from that era that still works fine under windows 10 . . . .

USB? Parallel Port? If the latter, how?  The last time I called MOTU, tech support had no idea that they used to make parallel port interfaces and they certainly didn't have any documentation I could use to try to make it work under Windows 10.  

They do have a download page for the "MIDI Express XT original" but the driver download for Windows 10 still requires a USB version. So far as I know, the original did not have USB nor can it be upgraded; nor is there an upgrade path to any USB versions of any era.

The last time any of my MOTU MIDI interfaces worked with a computer as intended, it was under Windows XP.

[David Baay]

9 minutes ago, User 905133 said:

USB?

Yes, USB. The PC version of the hardware actually shipped with a chip that you had to swap out to make the port compatible with Wintel USB.

But, you're right to question as I realize I was off by a decade. It must have been early 2000s when I got my first laptop that needed external MIDI.

[Emanu3le85]

On 4/25/2024 at 3:57 PM, John Vere said:

La mia conclusione è che Motu è un'azienda orientata al Mac e non dedica tempo allo sviluppo dei propri driver audio e software per Windows. 

Sul mio computer più vecchio, che era W10, dovevo utilizzare un buffer 512 di problemi tecnici. Sul mio nuovo W11 c'è un leggero miglioramento delle prestazioni e posso usarne 256. I miei progetti sono ridicolmente semplici. Non mi avvicino a nessun plug-in che consuma la CPU. 

Il mio progetto più complicato sarà al limite del glitch utilizzando il Motu come interfaccia @ 256 ma se passo al mio Zoom L8 posso abbassare i miei buffer a 128 e persino a 64. Stesso computer, stessi progetti. 

Ho scattato alcune schermate in modo da poter confrontare le impostazioni. Presta attenzione alla casella di sincronizzazione e alla memorizzazione nella cache, assicurati che Motu venga visualizzato lì. A volte i driver invasivi vengono visualizzati lì ed è necessario eliminarli in Reg Edit. 

Assicurati inoltre di avere il driver ASIO più recente dal sito Web Motu. 

 

it seems that I solved a lot by activating the reading of the cache in "file system"  during playback and recording and also by lowering the latency to 128 samples, now when I record, the audio clip is perfectly in synch but there is still a lot of latency of the midi automations during recording, maybe when I created my new template I exaggerated with the channel aux, in fact the problem doesn't exist if I start a new empty file

Edited April 26 by Emanu3le85

[rsinger]

I have a MOTU M4 and haven't had any problems with it. My DAW is 10 yrs old and a bit slow so I normally run at 128 samples, 44.1. but if I turn off the network it'll run at 64 for recording. Normally I use a MOTU midi express XT for MIDI. If I have time this year, I'll upgrade the MB.

[User 905133]

4 hours ago, David Baay said:

Yes, USB.

Thanks for the clarification.  You had my hopes up, but just about 1/8 of an inch.  😉 

[John Vere]

I own a Tascam us1641 and a Scarlett 6i6 and now a Zoom L8. those all perform fine at lower settings. The Motu glitches same project same settings.  

 

Edited Monday at 12:22 AM by John Vere

[msmcleod]

MIDI latency was an issue that gave me grief for years, until I worked out what was going on.

In Preferences->Project->Clock, you can choose your clock source.  It defaults to Audio, which is by far the most accurate and reliable.

The only issue is, you need the audio engine to be running for this to work.  If you've a MIDI only project (like I used when I used racks of MIDI synth modules), then this isn't going to work unless you have audio or a soft-synth in your project.  If you don't, then the timer essentially isn't running, and MIDI timing is all over the place.

If you're recording only MIDI, you could set the clock to "Internal" - this will work for MIDI only projects, but its accuracy can then depend on whether the high-resolution timer is enabled both on your motherboard and in Windows, and how well they play together.  Sometimes enabling the high-resolution timer can make things better, sometimes worse, and in many cases can cause a whole bunch of other system instabilities/blue screens if its set wrong.... best not to play with it. Really.   Feel free to try the "Internal" clock setting - if it works right away, great - but don't mess around with high-res-timer stuff unless you really know what you're doing and know how to revert it.



By far the easiest solution is to leave it set to Audio, then insert a soft synth or an audio track with a silent clip, and do this before you start recording any MIDI. 

 

[Emanu3le85]

15 hours ago, msmcleod said:

MIDI latency was an issue that gave me grief for years, until I worked out what was going on.

In Preferences->Project->Clock, you can choose your clock source.  It defaults to Audio, which is by far the most accurate and reliable.

The only issue is, you need the audio engine to be running for this to work.  If you've a MIDI only project (like I used when I used racks of MIDI synth modules), then this isn't going to work unless you have audio or a soft-synth in your project.  If you don't, then the timer essentially isn't running, and MIDI timing is all over the place.

If you're recording only MIDI, you could set the clock to "Internal" - this will work for MIDI only projects, but its accuracy can then depend on whether the high-resolution timer is enabled both on your motherboard and in Windows, and how well they play together.  Sometimes enabling the high-resolution timer can make things better, sometimes worse, and in many cases can cause a whole bunch of other system instabilities/blue screens if its set wrong.... best not to play with it. Really.   Feel free to try the "Internal" clock setting - if it works right away, great - but don't mess around with high-res-timer stuff unless you really know what you're doing and know how to revert it.



By far the easiest solution is to leave it set to Audio, then insert a soft synth or an audio track with a silent clip, and do this before you start recording any MIDI. 

 

thanks for the advice, I have tried many times to set the clock to internal but it automatically goes back to Audio, I have significantly improved the situation by enabling cache reading both during playback and recording in "file system" and I lowered the buffer size to 128 semples, the computer seems to hold up,

with the old PC I would only have glitches with these settings

[David Baay]

2 hours ago, Emanu3le85 said:

I have tried many times to set the clock to internal but it automatically goes back to Audio,

If you have the metronome set to Audio, the clock will be forced to Audio. Likewise if the project has any soft synth or any audio track with input echo enabled. To use 'Internal', the project has to have only MIDI tracks and MIDI metronome. But that's not what you want anyway.

[msmcleod]

FYI - regarding latency with automation...  for VST2 plugins, the automation resolution is restricted by the current buffer size.   So for a buffer size of 1024, you may experience up to a 1 second lag in picking up automation (unless your automation happens to land exactly on the buffer boundary).  Reducing your buffer size will help to mitigate this.

VST3 doesn't have this limitation.

[Emanu3le85]

53 minutes ago, msmcleod said:

FYI - regarding latency with automation...  for VST2 plugins, the automation resolution is restricted by the current buffer size.   So for a buffer size of 1024, you may experience up to a 1 second lag in picking up automation (unless your automation happens to land exactly on the buffer boundary).  Reducing your buffer size will help to mitigate this.

VST3 doesn't have this limitation.

unfortunately the latency of the automations even when decreasing the buffer does not go into sync and is more than 2/3 seconds, but I think it is a problem with my new Midi/Audio template, in fact each instrument channel is connected to an aux with audio return, in fact if I open with an empty project I have no latency when recording automations

Edited Monday at 09:20 AM by Emanu3le85

[Xoo]

On 4/28/2024 at 12:08 AM, msmcleod said:

MIDI latency was an issue that gave me grief for years, until I worked out what was going on.

In Preferences->Project->Clock, you can choose your clock source.  It defaults to Audio, which is by far the most accurate and reliable.

The only issue is, you need the audio engine to be running for this to work.  If you've a MIDI only project (like I used when I used racks of MIDI synth modules), then this isn't going to work unless you have audio or a soft-synth in your project.  If you don't, then the timer essentially isn't running, and MIDI timing is all over the place.

If you're recording only MIDI, you could set the clock to "Internal" - this will work for MIDI only projects, but its accuracy can then depend on whether the high-resolution timer is enabled both on your motherboard and in Windows, and how well they play together.  Sometimes enabling the high-resolution timer can make things better, sometimes worse, and in many cases can cause a whole bunch of other system instabilities/blue screens if its set wrong.... best not to play with it. Really.   Feel free to try the "Internal" clock setting - if it works right away, great - but don't mess around with high-res-timer stuff unless you really know what you're doing and know how to revert it.



By far the easiest solution is to leave it set to Audio, then insert a soft synth or an audio track with a silent clip, and do this before you start recording any MIDI. 

 

Audio metronome enabled?

[msmcleod]

27 minutes ago, Emanu3le85 said:

unfortunately the latency of the automations even when decreasing the buffer does not go into sync and is more than 2/3 seconds, but I think it is a problem with my new Midi/Audio template, in fact each instrument channel is connected to an aux with audio return, in fact if I open with an empty project I have no latency when recording automations

Sounds like you've got some lookahead plugins.  Mastering/Linear Phase plugins will cause this.  They're designed to be used at mixing/mastering time and should be avoided at tracking time.