John Vere Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 (edited) You have so many things going on that will cause you grief that I hate to depress you with them. In the wise words of ?? I forgot who. But. “ Keep it Simple “ Or was that “It’s 5 oClock Somewhere “?? Edited January 8 by John Vere 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Ward Posted January 8 Author Share Posted January 8 @John Vere (I got the hang of this @ thing). You couldn't depress me John. I've lived my whole life not having high expectations of anything or anyone. It has served me well, as I've never really been dissapointed about anything !! Well, I've spent yesterday and today loading up my current, troublesome project with 60x of the plugins that I used on my reference project of yesteryear (which had no Late Buffer problems). I even added duplicate backing vox tracks to accomodate them. And so, with 15x tracks of which 4x are 'open' VSTs and the rest audio, I can tell you (after playing through 30x times) that I have not had any Late Buffer strikes. The 'Performance' window tells me the following : At 2048 Samples for playback - Audio Processing = 16.5% (Max 34.48%) Engine Load = 27% average (Max 37.8%) These were very close to the same results I was getting when yesterday and the day before, I played through the project of yesteryear. This immediately confirms 2x things. Firstly, my current problematic project does NOT have a resident bug or is not corrupted (even though it refused to open twice the other day). Perhaps it was a bad coincidence. Secondly that the 60x plugins now on my current project in place of the 11x I originally had, CAN be handled comfortably at 2048 Samples on this machine spec. I don't think I'm sticking my neck out when I say that, since I have played it back at least 30x times with the 'Performance' window constantly giving me the same figures within 1-2% each playback. SO, folks, I am now going to delete all 60x of yesteryears plugins, save the project in its pluin-free state and start putting back, one by one, the 11x plugins I had initially put onto the project. I will play through with each plugin inserted and jot down the performance stats. If I don't experience what I was experiencing before, then I'll be damned, because that will mean there is no obvious solution to the issue I've had !!!! I will work on that now and update later tonight or tomorrow. It's great being retired and single - all the time to myself. (Now THAT'S selfish !!!) Cheers 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Ward Posted January 9 Author Share Posted January 9 It's 02:30 in the morning here in the UK and I'm ready to hit the sack. However, after a marathon session of troubleshooting my problem, I do believe that I have come to the solution with the help of you all. There's too much to explain now, so I'll take a nap and give you my findings tomorrow (later today !!!!). G'night. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpet Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 I have found this thread particularly interesting as it has shown me things I wasn`t previously aware of. My music PC is a lowly i3 quad core 3.6Ghz, 32 Gb RAM machine which I chose as I reasoned ( incorrectly it seems ) would be fine as it`s only audio and I`m not messing with video. Now I realise that processing VST`s in real time, like synths and guitar sims is pretty heavy duty processing and it may be the cause of occasional audio glitches. My current effort only has about 12 tracks but 4 are Analog 5 synths and 4 have instances of Overloud TH3 on them. If I remember correctly, playing it through the processing load on the PC was a reasonable 25-30% ( max 60% ) and the Audio engine was up at around 65% ( max 95% ), with some late buffers. Running at 1024 samples for playback. I have to reduce it to 256 samples for tracking. To ease the load I then disabled some other audio drivers ( as recommended in previous posts ) froze the tracks with synths and TH3 on them and the performance was much more comfortable. At the risk of sounding like a newb, the questions I have are 1. What are late buffers 2. Would they perhaps be the cause of occasional audio glitches 3. Is the audio engine the processing part of Cakewalk 4. Would the late buffers potentially be the cause of some audio glitches 5. Do I need a better machine. Thanks Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Ward Posted January 9 Author Share Posted January 9 @limpet Hi Keith, Perhaps I should be the last one to answer your post because I'm the one who started this one - but ...... Late Buffers are definitely the cause of audio glitches. In my recent experience this happens when Cakewalk's Engine Load exceeds 100% Max. The second it does, you hear a glitch. If you have read through this thread from the beginning, you will note that over the past years I have been using Sonar (now CbB and soon to be Sonar again), I have been able to track and mix projects with VSTs unfrozen and 60x plugins going and that was on a lesser machine !! Everyone who has responded to my initial post are extremely knowleagable folk who have 'grown up' with Sonar and have FAR more insight into its mysteries. Hopefully they will help you with more detail than I, but what I have said above should answer your questions. I am now coming to a sort of ending to this thread (but it only starts another !!!!), so please stayed tuned whilst I continue on the following post. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Vere Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 It’s always a plug in! be it instrument or an effect. Some are what we call light load some are heavy. I personally avoid the ones that are heavy. Actually I’ve never had issues with TH3. I’m not sure where it stands. It would be cool if someone has made a chart showing all the common plug ins and how they score load wise. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpet Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 9 minutes ago, John Vere said: It would be cool if someone has made a chart showing all the common plug ins and how they score load wise. I agree, that would be very cool. If only I knew where to start! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Vere Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 There’s a tool called the Plug in Doctor that I played around with a year ago. It was free to use in a limited way but I’m too dumb to interpret its readings. I would think lots of folks probably could though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Ward Posted January 9 Author Share Posted January 9 Hi to all and huge, huge thanks for keeping up with this thread. Your patience and willingness to help, make sticking with CbB more of a no brainer !!! Over the last 2x days and having followed all your hints and tips and thoughts, and with a painstakingly methodical approach, I finally discovered that SOUNDTOYS plugins seem to be the cause of all my recent issues on my current project. @John Vere you said it in the plainest of language "..... it's always a plugin...." and to @msmcleod who pointed to another thread about Soundtoys Superplate (which I purchased about a month ago) that steered me to this revelation. You will see from one of my earlier threads that to start my investigation, I loaded up the 60x plugins I had successfully used in my very first recording from yesteryear into my CURRENT problematic project. With 4x 'live' VSTs carrying a few of the 60x plugins and the 5x audio tracks hosting the remaining, the project sailed through 6-7 times over with no Late Buffer strikes and therefore no glitches. The Engine Load maxed at around 50% and the Audio Processing was around 30%. This was also after experimenting with smaller Sample Rates as I wanted to find out where my rig would topple over. I got down to 384 Samples. Feeling encouraged, I left it till Sunday gone to start the next stage. This was to load my current project with the plugins I had started to use on it and do so one by one, playing the song through at least twice every time. After loading the 1st plugin and finding no Late Buffer strikes, I deleted it and even closed down BbB before restarting it and loading the next plugin. I did that till I had gone through the 11x Plugins one at a time. When I got to Soundtoys Superplate (being the only plugin loaded), I got a Late Buffer strike at a max Engine Load of 962.0%. The same with Soundtoys Little Radiator - but wait !!! Something told me to recheck my Sample Rate in my ASIO driver. It was still set to 384 Samples and keeping in mind the other fellow who had issues with Superplate, I increased the sample rate to the max 2048. Even now as I'm writing this, I am playing the project through with only Superplate loaded and at 2048 Samples. On its 2nd playthrough and zero Late Buffers. Audio Proc. = 1.9% (max 8.14%, Engine Load 10.2% (max 15%). What's wrong with that you would say. 2048 Samples when you're in Playback mode shouldn't matter. Lowest Sample rates are only necessary in Recording mode. And so I have started loading 2x instances of Little Radiator and iZotope Nectar 4 and lo and behold, with Audio Processing at 3.8% (max 17.6%), Engine Load 19% (max 24.7%) until I hit a Late Buffer at 170% max. SO, it's not a simple case of Soundtoys plugins being the problem, but what other plugins you add them to on your project. Look, 2x instances of Little Rad, 1x of Superplate and 1x of Nectar 4. That should not be demanding on my rig and the proof is there with the Engine Load count at a low 24% until it hits a Late Buffer at 170.0% max. I have now deleted Nectar 4, leaving 2x instances of Little Rad and 1x of Superplate (both Soundtoys plugins) and played through 3x times with NO Late Buffer glitches. So Soundtoys seems to like to behave as a Cuckoo in the nest. They don't like to share with others (I have to be careful here as I don't want to be had for libel). I have now added a Waves plugin and played through with no Late Buffer strikes. I have now added a Sonitus plugin on top and got a L/Buffer strike. I deleted it and went BACK to 3x Soundtoys and 1x Waves plugins. This time I did get a Late Buffer (my head's spinning). I have now deleted the Waves and am left with 3x Soundtoys. NO Late Buffers. Oh heck - wait ...... on 2nd and 3rd play through I got a Late Buffer strike each time ........ and on 4th - 7th time NO Late Buffers again. Oh heck - wait again ... with the play engine stopped, I've hit another Late Buffer - and now 3x and slowly climbing !!!! Have I arrived at the cause ??? Do I have resolution ??? It's still a little up in the air on account of my paragraph above. I honestly thought that when I got up today to write this post, it was going to be my last - the conclusion, all the investigation was done - but now, perhaps not. I do believe I'm very close though. I would ask all contributors and readers of this thread to post here as to whether or not you have the same issues with Soundtoys plugins. This is important to help readers of this thread. I shall now go to see if Soundtoys has a forum and poke around there. PLEASE FELLAS - post here any experiences you have had with Soundtoys - good or bad. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Stanton Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 there is a thread on the Soundtoys plugins on this forum and it seems several of them have issues, which as faik, have not yet been resolved - but a couple did get updates as a "beta". of course, i had just purchased them before finding this out... lol 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Vere Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Ward Posted January 9 Author Share Posted January 9 Update : I'll take back what I said about Soundtoys plugins wanting to be the only plugins in a mix. In the last hour since my above post, I'm still getting Late Buffer glitches with ONLY the 2x Littla Rad. and Superplate plugins in the project. I strongly believe that it's Soundtoys plugins being the issue after reading through Reddit and KVR Forum threads. Loads of people on different DAWs and either on Windows or Mac have stated the very same issue. Some claim to have overcome them by rolling back to earlier releases or from VST3 back to VST2. Some of you might be thinking at this point that the simplest resolution is to take Soundtoys off my PC. I might well end up going that easy route. Their selection of plugins are covered by other plugin companies after all. However, that route leaves me feeling it's a bit of a cop out. If there is a solution I can find (it might be what I have read in those other forums), I want to be able to come back here and state it, in order to help Cakewalkers. It's the very least I can do considering the time you kind folk have given to my problem. The fact that I removed plugins from my current 'problem' project and loaded up with 60x plugins from yesteryear is good proof, since none of them were Soundtoys. I could even create a new test project and load up VSTs and any audio tracks and start filling up with plugins other than Soundtoys as a further means of evidence. I just always like to come to an understanding and a solution, but for now I am focussed on this route. But please give your own experiences with Soundtoys. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Ward Posted January 9 Author Share Posted January 9 @Glenn Stanton @John Vere Well, there it is gents. You responded to my post before last, as I was writing the previous post. This issue has indeed already been covered on this Forum with some resolved and some not. But clearly an issue with buggy Soundtoys plugs. They may be amongst the hungrier of plugs John, but clearly the issue is with inherent bugs and lesser to do with the number of plugs in a project. Both of course contribute to Late Buffers one way or another - there's no arguing that. Thankyou guys !!! I shall contact Soundtoys Help Line as my next step and if they steer me towards a bug free condition with their plugs, I will then be judicious in how I use them. Otherwise I now know to dump them. Does this bring us to a resolution with this thread ?? All the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsinger Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 Yeah, I had a problem with Soundtoys Echoboy. They put out a beta for that and it works fine. Check their website and see if there is a beta available for the plugin you're using. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sal Sorice Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 @Chris Ward, just curious. Did you do a RAM test with https://www.memtest86.com/? RAM is likely not the issue, but I've been down that road and it drove me crazy until I found out it was a bad stick of RAM causing my issues (not with my wife... with Cakewalk... :^) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Ward Posted January 10 Author Share Posted January 10 @Sal Sorice Hi again Sal, Thanks for heads -up on Memtest86. Have downloaded it just now and will run it on Friday when the PC Engineer comes. It's worth doing even though I am now convinced my issue has been with Soundtoys, not only from the thread on this forum, but also from those at KVR and Reditt. I'm now going to attempt chatting with Soundtoys Helpline and will post back with results. @rsinger Thanks for your message too. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Ward Posted January 10 Author Share Posted January 10 Update : I've sent a message to Soundtoys and now have to sit back and wait at least 24hrs for a response. If we have to back and forth with messages, this could take some time. In the meantime I thought to open a new 'test' project with 1x audio track and insert Superplate only. Got no Late Buffers even after playing back 3x times. Loaded Little Radiator with it and started getting audible Late Buffers. Deleted Superplate, leaving Little Radiator and still got L/Buffers. Deleted that and put Superplate back on, on its own and now got audible Late Buffers. Pushed the boat out and deleted them. Brought in Soundtoys Effects Rack and loaded it up with 6x effects. Max Engine Load only around 12%. No L/Buffers. Then thought to go further and insert a further 6x instances of Effect Rack, each with only 1x effect. Max Engine Load only up by 1% and no L/Buffers. Played through now several times and always clean. Effect Rack includes the full Radiator which was loaded. Verdict : I can remove Little Radiator as I have the full one and is behaving. Superplate (which is my very recent purchase) is the culprit. So to make it clear and in fairness to Soundtoys, I am not experiencing any Late Buffer glitches with Effect Rack. Superplate is in my sites. Let's see what solution they come back with. Standby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Ward Posted January 12 Author Share Posted January 12 Hi Folks, I got a response from Soundtoys regarding my issues with Superplate and Little Radiator and they have pointed me to a page of Beta downloads. I have to uninstall the final release and replace with the Beta version WITH THE CAVEAT BELOW !!! "The installers linked to on this page are BETA versions. This means that these builds have not completed full testing by us, and more than likely contain bugs or other incompatibilities. Use of beta versions are at your own risk, which may include the risk of catastrophic issues. If you are not ok with this risk then we recommend you wait for the officially released version. Please visit our beta forum for the latest information - such as known issues - and to provide feedback." Well, I did wait for the officially released version and paid good money for it. I'm not sure if I want to take the risk and just ask for a refund. The polite e-mail they sent also mentioned this : "Just a heads up, Cakewalk is not one of our officially supported host DAWs". Should @Noel Borthwick perhaps pick up the phone to them and press them to be included ?? Seems a bit of a cop out. I now have to go back to them and ask why Effects Rack seems to work. Surely the part of the coding that makes it OK in Cakewalk would be ported over into Superplate. Since I'm not a software programmer, I wouldn't know the answer to that. @rsinger you've not had problems with Echoboy Beta. Is there anyone else who's had experience in going this route?? I worked further on my latest project yesterday with Superplate and Little Radiator removed and had no Late Buffers. All the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Stanton Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 the "cakewalk isn't on our list of supported DAW" is just a cop out. they're in Netscape mode - i.e. waiting/hoping someone will buy them so the owner can walk away with millions. it's easy to spot: they stop upgrading and fixing their products & spend extra money on marketing and hyping the # of licenses so someone interested in consolidation will swoop in and make the payday. in this market though, i think they're in for a wait given the noise around their [lacking] product quality and general lack of support attitude - which is not what someone consolidating the market wants. a consolidator is likely to pick up Melda as an example of high quality and great support - except they probably will pay a premium... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsinger Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 47 minutes ago, Chris Ward said: @rsinger you've not had problems with Echoboy Beta. Is there anyone else who's had experience in going this route?? IIRC the problem may have just been with the vst3 version. If there's a vst2 version and you're not using that, give it a try. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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