I have an intermittent problem: 88 mS of silence when mixing

[Chris-J]

Hello fellow Cakewalkers!

I keep encountering an intermittent problem when mixing:

When I am exporting a session, I get 88 mS of silence in the midst of a mix. It is never in the same place in the song and I do not always get this "glitch" when I EXPORT, I would say I get this issue 75% of the time. Track count is 14, plug in count is 46.  I am using TWO External Inserts to hardware.

I am using the latest version of Cakewalk By Bandlab: Version 2022.11

My computer is a Dell Laptop, model G15 with an Intel i7-12700H processor, 16 GB of RAM, Windows 11, Version 22H2.

Audio Interface is an RME FF802 with the latest ASIO driver.  

In Audio Settings:

I am using ASIO, sample rate is 48 kHz, 24 bits.

I have tried setting the latency buffer to 512, 1024 and 2048 samples, this does not fix my problem

64 bit engine is checked ON

"Use Multiprocessing engine" is checked ON

"Use MMCSS" is checked ON, 

"Enable MMCSS for ASIO driver" is checked off in Cakewalk and in the RME interface

Configuration file:

I have tried setting "ThreadSchedulingModel" to 2 or 3, it doesn't seem to make any difference.

I have tried setting "ExtraPlugInBufs" from 0 to 128 and points in between, that doesn't seem to fix the problem either.

I have increased "Playback I/O Buffer Size (kB)" from 256 to 512 to000 1024, that doesn't fix the problem either.

"MinPluginLoadBalancingBufferSamples" is set to 192

I have tried setting the laptop to Airplane Mode, this doesn't help either.

Anyone have any suggestions?

Thanks,

Chris

 

[mark skinner]

Are you using the "fast" export option ?

[Chris-J]

Thanks for your interest!   It is appreciated!   

No, I am using “Render In Real -Time” and “Audible Bounce”, i.e. they are enabled.

”Live Input” is disabled,    “Clip Automation” and “Synth/FX Automation” are disabled, everything else is enabled in EXPORT. 

Task manager shows Utilization is approx.11%

Performance shows:

Audio processing:   4.2% (Max 21,7%)

Engine Load: 20% (Max 31.0%)

No Late Buffers

Audio Thread Priority: Time Critical (15)

Thanks,

Chris

 

 

 

[scook]

Bounce/freeze as much as possible before export

[Chris-J]

OK, thanks!

May I ask why?

I had (perhaps foolishly and naively!) assumed freezing would not be necessary with a relativity powerful processor like an Intel i7-12700H; it has 14 cores and will run 20 Logical Processors. (As shown in Task Manager).

[scook]

To see if taking out as many plug-ins and real time processing as possible will produce the desired export and/or help narrow down the cause of the problem.

 

[bitflipper]

First thing I'd do is delete (not bypass) every plugin and run multiple test exports to see if the problem persists. If it does, then you'll know it's something in your system causing the problem. If it doesn't, then you'll know to look for something specific to the project. 

[Chris-J]

16 minutes ago, bitflipper said:

First thing I'd do is delete (not bypass) every plugin and run multiple test exports to see if the problem persists. If it does, then you'll know it's something in your system causing the problem. If it doesn't, then you'll know to look for something specific to the project. 

Thanks!

I will definitely run this experiment!

Just curious, why do you recommend deleting plugins and NOT bypassing them ?

Wouldn't bypassing do the same thing?

Pardon my ignorance, I’m not a coding expert by any yardstick!

[Chris-J]

22 minutes ago, scook said:

To see if taking out as many plug-ins and real time processing as possible will produce the desired export and/or help narrow down the cause of the problem.

 

Thanks, I’ll give this experiment a try.

[Xoo]

Does that CPU have a mix of P(erformance) and E(fficienxy) cores?  I'd try disabling the E ones in the BIOS if so.

[Chris-J]

Yes, it has P and E cores. I can see all cores are used in the “Performance” module.

I don’t know how to disable the E cores, and I don’t feel too comfortable messing with the BIOS!

But I will try that if the other suggestions don’t work.

So far, freezing all the tracks seems to work. Which isn’t as tedious and time consuming as I thought it would be, BTW.

[Chris-J]

OK, I ran 4 EXPORTS with all tracks frozen.

Busses still had active, enabled plugins.

On the 4th try, I got the same type of “glitch”.   it’s never in the same place, but always 88 mS long, i.e. 88 mS of silence.

Now I’m running the export session with ZERO plugins, i.e. all plugins deleted from tracks and busses.

Edited March 5, 2023 by Chris-J
Missing info

[Chris-J]

I ran (6) EXPORTS without a single plugin.

No glitches!

Success!  All I need to do is mix without plugins, LOL!

Seriously, thanks for all the help folks.   It is very appreciated.

I must have a delinquent plugin or plugin manufacturer.

I’m going to try exporting another song.      I ran all these tests with the same song, of course, to keep the same basis for the tests.

[bitflipper]

You might have a plugin running in demo mode. Since the 88ms dropout affects the entire mix, start with the plugins on your master bus.

8 hours ago, Chris-J said:

Just curious, why do you recommend deleting plugins and NOT bypassing them ?

Even if a plugin is bypassed it remains in the circuit and still has an effect on the signal passing through it. 

[John Vere]

14 hours ago, bitflipper said:

You might have a plugin running in demo mode. Since the 88ms dropout affects the entire mix, start with the plugins on your master bus.

Even if a plugin is bypassed it remains in the circuit and still has an effect on the signal passing through it. 

This was the first thing I though of when I saw the thread title earlier. It's always a plug in. 

Today I was just getting ready to mix a finished song and there was this terrible glitch that always happened  in exactly the same place???  Knowing the Gospel of  using Cakewalk " IT SHALL BE KNOWN THAT IT IS ALWAYS A PLUG IN" 

I bypassed my effects and of course the glitch was gone. Took about 2 minutes to find the culprit " Wider " by Polyverse  a free plug in.  Odd thing is I had it on 3 tracks and only this one track with low harmony  caused the issue. I removed it and re inserted it and it still glitched.

Edit: further investigation was the glitch was right at a split point on a track that had been copy pasted as well as Melodyne had been used . Solution was to export the untidy track as a stem delete it and import the new track  problem solved . My conclusion is my computer is old and Cakewalk has problems when asked to process too much data  Editing crests a lot more data to process . That one point in time as example contained more than my system could process. 

I got caught by the demo mode voodoo a few weeks ago too. 

Edited March 6, 2023 by John Vere

[Byron Dickens]

I think saying "always* is inaccurate and unfair. It's probably only something like 99.99% of the time.

[Chris-J]

Thanks for the assistance folks.

I ran another experiment:

I left all the tracks frozen, but deleted all the plugins from the busses.

The problem disappeared.

I would surmise the logical  conclusion would be there is a delinquent plugin in the Master Bus.

Now I’ll have to narrow it down.   I’ve logged off the computer for the day, but I’ll see if I can narrow it down tomorrow.

Thanks again for all the assistance!

[Chris-J]

1 hour ago, Byron Dickens said:

I think saying "always* is inaccurate and unfair. It's probably only something like 99.99% of the time.

LOL!

[Starship Krupa]

5 hours ago, John Vere said:

Knowing the Gospel of  using Cakewalk " IT SHALL BE KNOWN THAT IT IS ALWAYS A PLUG IN" 

I bypassed my effects and of course the glitch was gone. Took about 2 minutes to find the culprit " Wider " by Polyverse  a free plug in.  I think I'll update the Gospel to " ITS ALWAYS A FREE PLUG IN"

As you might imagine, this is like waving a red flag at me. 😉

I'll point out that every one of Cakewalk's stock plug-ins, including the ProChannel modules, is a "FREE PLUG-IN." Statistically, most of us try more freeware plug-ins than payware ones, so we're more likely to find issues with freeware ones. 

Wider is a favorite of many Cakezoids. I like it for extreme widening effects, but usually prefer JST/Boz Sidewidener (once magware, now freeware) or Ozsoft Xpander for more subtle effects. Anything you find in the "Favorite Freeware" threads is vetted to some degree by Cakewalk users. Cakewalk itself is a testament to the quality level of today's freeware. It's become more stable, faster, and compatible under the freeware license than it was when it was payware.

Things have changed in the past 10 years: so many larger companies have begun issuing freeware as a loss-leader promotion. MeldaProduction was one of the innovators, with their highly-regarded MFreeFX bundle. With the old picture of freeware being the product of solo hobbyists working in their spare time is no longer accurate. Wider is a loss-leader product of Polyverse, who have a line of decidedly non-free plug-ins. As a loss-leader, presumably intended to pique interest in the company's for-pay efforts, one would hope they have incentive to make sure the thing worked.

Anyway, I prefer to say that it's a conflict with a plug-in. This avoids the dreaded finger-pointing/perception of defensiveness. And, bottom line, if there is a problem with a plug-in (especially with one as popular as Wider, @John Vere 😛), the Cakewalk developers should be informed that there is an issue. Same with the plug-in developers. Let 'em know?

If a plug-in doesn't play nice with Cakewalk, neither Cakewalk nor the plug-in is "at fault," even though thousands of other plug-ins work just fine with Cakewalk and the plug-in in questions works just fine in other hosts (usually REAPER 😄). Compatibility is a 2-way street, and the fact is, both the host and the plug-in can be 100% compliant with the VST3 spec and still not play nice with each other. Fortunately, it's easy for developers to test with Cakewalk: all you need is a Windows system and an internet connection to get it.

Why should Wider work for so many others, but not John? I have no idea. I've seen a tiny number of plug-in conflicts not with the host, but with another plug-in. Sometimes they don't like being in the same rack or even project with each other. I see that situation as being hopeless, because how do you get 3 different developers to sort out something like that?

BTW, regarding payware vs. freeware, has anyone mentioned the possibility that there's an unregistered plug-in in this project? That's a common feature of plug-in demos: before the product is registered, it will issue silence or hiss at various intervals. The gap or noise usually lasts for at least a second, not as brief as 88mS, though.

Edited March 6, 2023 by Starship Krupa

[Byron Dickens]

Perhaps its just my skeptical nature, but I'm always suspicious when someone is that specific. 88ms? Really? You measured it? 88 for sure and not 90 or 82? Especially when they are apparently unaware of such basic steps like looking for troublesome plugins...