Making music is expensive, my RME Fireface II died...

[RexRed]

Here are the guts of the black model

https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B08LF5B6CS/ref=twister_B092DVLW6Y?_encoding=UTF8&th=1

The black model looks like it was made better.

It has a rugged cord as well something the might be road worthy.

Edited July 4, 2022 by RexRed

[msmcleod]

You may also want to check out the Golden Age Pre 73 - it's $30 more, but is a Neve 1073 clone.  I use two of them myself, and I'm very pleased with them.  

[Starship Krupa]

3 minutes ago, RexRed said:

Yes I saw that less expensive version. The transformer does not look as good inside that and there is more inside the newer version. 

Huh. Weird. I didn't compare the gut shots, but they are indeed different. I wonder why they would use the exact same model number. Maybe get in touch and ask them what the differences are.

I like the gut shot of the orange one better because the transformer is mounted to its own PCB rather than the one for the front panel. I like getting heavy components down off of highly-populated boards. They can wiggle around and cause other components' solder joints to break (a fault you have experienced).

It looks like a layout and power supply change. The power supply components are on their own PCB in the black one and mounted on the input board in the orange one. It looks like the orange one is AC wall-wart powered whereas the black one has a self-contained power supply (that's what the big toroid donut is for, the audio transformers look the same). Whether one thinks that is a good thing depends.

Yeah, ask them. My guess is the black one is a newer model with those layout and power supply changes. The changes may be for reliability, cost, or noise floor reasons.

[RexRed]

 

24 minutes ago, msmcleod said:

You may also want to check out the Golden Age Pre 73 - it's $30 more, but is a Neve 1073 clone.  I use two of them myself, and I'm very pleased with them.  

The Golden Age Project Pre-73 has an 80db boost!  A lot higher than the Warm unit.

I am liking the Pre-73 more now.

Got it in my cart...

Gonna wait till they open in the morning to get 0 interest financing.

 

Edited July 4, 2022 by RexRed

[RexRed]

This looks like a slightly different version of the 73.

 

Edited July 4, 2022 by RexRed

[Alan Tubbs]

The warm pre is an api style mic.  Very upfront, rock n roll sound.  Nice fullness from the transformer without sacrificing transients.  Simple circuitry.

the other main clone these days is of Mr. Neve’s 1073 pre with eq taken from his early solid state mixers.  Golden age was the first low cost cloned but had quality control issues.  Enter Warm who got better qc plus had good service.  Golden age solved their qc problems.  I’ve never used one but plenty of people seem to like it.  The warm Neve is pretty good but a lot more than $80 more than their api pre.

 

another serious  contender is the isa one by focusrite.  Kinda splits the difference.  A little smooth transformer goodness but not heavy.  You can find them on sale for 4 or 5 hundred with luck.  Taken from (again) one of Mr. Neves later designs from focusrite when he returned from audio exile after selling his Neve company and signing a non competitive agreement.

As he worked toward reproducing an electric signal with no distortion at all he did reach that goal.  But without some internal distortion recording engineers found they missed it and how distortion can help cut or fill out a sound.  I had one friend who guessed which company it was.  He said you could turn up an eq band and feel it doing anything.  So Mr Neve introduced Silk to his RND line which adds second and or third order harmonic back into the signal for such help.  Mr. Neve never said which brand it was, but …

[RexRed]

Thank you one and all for the really vital help you have all supplied to me in this thread.

I went from someone who knew relatively little about this subject to being able to use your expert advice to buy a really great solution!

I ordered the Golden Age Project Pre-73 and the Shure SM7B last night.

I assume the Pre 73 will also work with my Audio-Technica AT4040 as well.

I think I understand also the advice of achieving unity gain so I do not need to utilize the pre amps in the audio interface.

This, I think I will struggle at first to get my signal right but over time I will learn the way to set the preamp and then be able to leave it.

As for adding harmonics to soften my sound, I think that can be done post as well.

I have a VST plugin effect called True Iron that adds warm amp harmonics and then there is Izotope and the prochannel tape/tube and console. 

There are lots of post options for adding warmth.

This is why I also did not buy the eq version of the Pre-73.

Although, I was once told that eq can be undone in post unlike removing other effects.

Have a great 4th of July, if you celebrate it, and again, thanks for the totally awesome help here!

Best,

Rex

(Please feel free to add anything more to this discussion if you like.)

Yes, making music does not need to break the bank, but it often does... 😊

[msmcleod]

10 hours ago, RexRed said:

This looks like a slightly different version of the 73.

 

There are  several versions of the standard Pre 73 - Mk I, Mk II & Mk III  -  I've got the Mk I, and a modded mk II ( I replaced the transformers with genuine Carnhills )

From the looks of it, that's a Mk II.  Everything from Mk II and above can be modded easily to be replaced with Carnhill transformers.  The Pre 73 DLX already has Carnhill transformers.

The bottom of the range is the Pre 73 JR, which is a 1U 1/4 rack module with just the Mic & Line inputs, and a gain pot...  you could fit 8 of them in a 2U rack space ( assuming you mounted the power supplies on the rear ).

There's also the Pre-73 Premier and Pre-73 DLX Premier, both which have genuine Carnhill transformers.  They're also the same colour as the old Neve's, with Neve style knobs.

I wouldn't assume the Carnhill transformers are necessarily superior to the stock transformers in the other Pre 73's - using Carnhill's just makes it sound closer to a real Neve 1073.

When comparing the Pre 73 to my other preamps,  it was by far the best sounding, although my Scarlett 18i20 was VERY close.  Where the Pre 73 really shines is when you drive it slightly too hard... then the magic saturation kicks in.

[RexRed]

3 hours ago, msmcleod said:

There are  several versions of the standard Pre 73 - Mk I, Mk II & Mk III  -  I've got the Mk I, and a modded mk II ( I replaced the transformers with genuine Carnhills )

From the looks of it, that's a Mk II.  Everything from Mk II and above can be modded easily to be replaced with Carnhill transformers.  The Pre 73 DLX already has Carnhill transformers.

The bottom of the range is the Pre 73 JR, which is a 1U 1/4 rack module with just the Mic & Line inputs, and a gain pot...  you could fit 8 of them in a 2U rack space ( assuming you mounted the power supplies on the rear ).

There's also the Pre-73 Premier and Pre-73 DLX Premier, both which have genuine Carnhill transformers.  They're also the same colour as the old Neve's, with Neve style knobs.

I wouldn't assume the Carnhill transformers are necessarily superior to the stock transformers in the other Pre 73's - using Carnhill's just makes it sound closer to a real Neve 1073.

When comparing the Pre 73 to my other preamps,  it was by far the best sounding, although my Scarlett 18i20 was VERY close.  Where the Pre 73 really shines is when you drive it slightly too hard... then the magic saturation kicks in.

I am so excited about this new phase of my musical journey.

Especially where there is science behind what I am doing.

Before I was kind of poking in the dark.

Now it seems I am being precise.

Using this technology to boost my signals seems like a really solid approach.

Before I was maxing out knobs not really thinking about the consequences to my sound signals.

And also, not really looking at the overall picture. 

Mic level, line level, high Z, low Z, dynamic, cardioid and instrument level.

This preamp seems to unify the entire gamut of possibilities.

Without it and I am more likely to have my signals corrupted along the way long before they reach the A/D converters.

This all seems like such a rudimentary thing but it has been missing from my vernacular leading to constant guesswork.

I plan to approach this with a better understanding rather than just plug stuff in and have to settle for what comes out without guiding the process more carefully.

I have replaced transformers before. I replaced one in my old Hammond organ, the transformer fried. It was the style organ with two layers of keys, drawbars, foot pedals, lovely spring reverb and 16" woofers.

I replaced it with a new transformer, quite expensive it was and the new one fried as well. Not sure why the fuse did not prevent the surge.

The lesson I learned, fix the amp before simply replacing the fried transformer.

I guess the fault in the amp, that was what burnt out the transformer in the first place.

Troubleshooting the amp was a bit above my expertise.

Live and learn, music can set you back a lot... lol

One expense I still don't regret was "lifetime updates".

I am proud to have supported Cakewalk over the years (since DOS). 

It worked out well!

Edited July 4, 2022 by RexRed
edits

[RexRed]

Why did this guy use stereo (balanced) cables to connect a mono signal?

I am wondering if my Behringer UMC 1820 input 1 is a balanced TRS. 

Edited July 4, 2022 by RexRed

[RexRed]

5 hours ago, RexRed said:

Why did this guy use stereo (balanced) cables to connect a mono signal?

I am wondering if my Behringer UMC 1820 input 1 is a balanced TRS. 

I found this response on a Google search.

DJ_Vintage

Dec '17

The “standard” difference between TS and TRS is not mono/stereo but rather unbalanced/balanced.

Unbalanced is fine for instruments to their amps and such. Anything else carrying a low-level audio signal will benefit from using a TSR/balanced cable to prevent outside interference, especially over longer distances (more than 2m or so). Not all gear has the option to send/receive balanced signal, in which case it makes no sense to use balanced cable and simple unbalanced/TS will do the job.

With all that said, you CAN use a TRS cable to hook up a stereo source that uses a single TRS output (highly unusual I think) to another stereo TRS input.

Most audio/PA gear I know will use Jack inputs only for single channel (i.e. mono) use. The only exception here are the FX Send/Return connectors on PA/Recording mixers that use TSR to send AND receive back a mono signal going into and back out from an outside effect unit.

So, can you use TRS cable for stereo signal yes, but it is highly unlikely you will find gear that uses that cable in that way.

The other way around now, to answer your question. Can you use TSR cable for mono signal? If you read what I said so far you will already have come to the conclusion that the way TSR cable is NORMALLY used IS for mono use, but balanced.

So your question should really be “can you use a TRS cable to make a mono UNBALANCED connection?”, for example between two pieces of gear where at least one has no balanced input or output. And the answer is yes, no problem. The R(ing) lead in the cable is simply not used.

Can you tell us what you are trying to connect to what. And why Jack? XLR is -by far- the preferred connector in PA, not in the least because it’s got a locking feature to prevent accidental disconnection.

Clearly a lot of controllers will have (balanced) Jack master/booth output for cost and/or space reasons.

Comment:

This is very good to know.  

[John Vere]

Because my voice seems to sound the best on a Beta 58 after trying dozens and dozens of mike over the last 50 years I was thinking of the SM7b as well. They bash it on Gearsnobs site but I have a feeling it will sound at least better than my 58. My Joe Meek pre amp was very reasonable price and I like it a lot but I still would like to have something else too. I have one of those old Art tube pre amps with a tube in it. I even upgrade the tube. But I can’t really hear anything exciting about it. I used it mostly as a DI box when I do live sound. 
I totally avoid using phantom power in any of my audio systems. I’ve blown up way too much stuff with it over the years. That’s the other reason I don’t want any mikes that need it. I have a few small condensers that take batteries 

Edited July 5, 2022 by John Vere

[msmcleod]

My thoughts on balanced vs unbalanced...

An unbalanced signal is basically your signal + ground.  A balanced signal also includes the phase inverted signal.   

The idea is that any interference (i.e. noise) that affects the cable will affect both the balanced and unbalanced signal equally. So when you combine the signals, the real signal will cancel out leaving only the added noise.  If you then phase-invert that noise, then combine it with the original signal, it will phase-cancel the noise leaving you with only the clean signal.

With a mic level signal going through a long cable this can be extremely useful, as a mic signal is relatively low and the noise level may be relatively significant in comparison... it'll also be amplified when the pre-amp amplifies it to line level.  So removing the noise before it amplifies it means you get a clean signal.

With a line level signal however, any introduced noise in the cable will be fairly low in comparison (unless you've got some real issues with RF / electrical  interference in your room).  Also the shorter the cable, the less chance any interference will get the opportunity to interfere with your signal.

With an amplified signal (e.g. speaker cables), the noise level is so low in comparison, you'd never notice it.

So in general,  always use balanced cables for mic level signals.  For line level signals, it's not really a big deal, especially if your cables are short (i.e. 6' or less). 

Personally, I use some balanced line cables in my pre-amp rack simply because the connections were there, there's so much gear close together, and it wasn't much more effort/expense to use them. There are plenty of places where I don't have a balanced input for line signals though, and I've never found this to be an issue.

[John Vere]

Yes people get confused because a TRS cable is both an unbalanced stereo cable and a balanced mono cable. Pretty rare to use it for stereo other than in a headphones rig. 

The effects send you are referring to was not from auxiliary send jacks but is common for insert jacks. You then need a TRS to Y cable. 
But most pro quality mixers will use TRS outputs for Aux sends and sometimes the returns. 

Because Aux are mostly used for monitoring systems not effects.  And an effects rack will be a short distance from the board but the monitor amp might be at the other end of a 300’ snake. Thank goodness those days are almost over and we can now use CAT5 or wireless 

It’s important to read the manual for all audio equipment and know what the connection jacks are as it can make a difference to how much noise you might get in the mains or monitoring.

I’ve owned power amps that used only TRS inputs and 1/4” speaker outs, you most certainly can’t go by looking at a jack to know what they are. That’s why combo jacks rule now. You can assume they will be balanced. 
 

Edited July 5, 2022 by John Vere

[RexRed]

These balanced TRS inputs are another thing I have just never even heard of until now.

Getting the local FM radio through my signal is not a good thing.

I use a Pyle noise eliminator as it is.

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00BARTW42/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title

Otherwise my speakers would be receiving alien messages from over vast distances across space (mostly hum, the universe and big bang noise)!

 So perhaps a balanced connection ever for a 3 foot cable may be  a wise choice. 

It is kind of disconcerting having my signal canceled before it reaches the A/D converter.

I think A/Bing the two cables would be a good experiment.

If there is no audible noise then I may go for the unbalanced option.

From the back of the preamp to the audio interface it would be a 3 foot cable.

I assumed the balanced cable had a shielding ground wire of some sort that protected it from interference.

Thank you very much Msmcleod for explaining about the real process that goes on.

Phase works!

I can hear a slight bit more clarity coming from the NEVE....

Is that all due to the GAP Pre-79 needing a transformer upgrade?

I am sure that the GAP Pre-79 will probably give me the clarity I am needing before my A/D converters.

But, these very pricy preamps sure are a tempting prospect.

Way out of my budget range for now though.

These NEVE preamps and $7000 Bluetooth microphones with multiple cardioid patterns that I can change on my Android phone will have to wait.

And, I wonder how much use that precariously perched reel to reel in the video really gets or is it just for show... lol

My Fostex 80 is prettier... 😁

Edited July 5, 2022 by RexRed

[RexRed]

I am wondering, do electric guitars also make use of the TRS noise eliminating feature? Can I use a stereo TRS cable out of my recently made Les Paul "copy" guitar and into the direct in of the GAP Pre 73 MKIII? Will it eliminate hum in the same way?

[msmcleod]

7 hours ago, RexRed said:

I am wondering, do electric guitars also make use of the TRS noise eliminating feature? Can I use a stereo TRS cable out of my recently made Les Paul "copy" guitar and into the direct in of the GAP Pre 73 MKIII? Will it eliminate hum in the same way?

Electric guitars are unbalanced - a TRS cable might work, but it won't do anything as the tip and ring will be shorted at the guitar end.

[DeeringAmps]

7 hours ago, RexRed said:

I am wondering, do electric guitars also make use of the TRS noise eliminating feature? Can I use a stereo TRS cable out of my recently made Les Paul "copy" guitar and into the direct in of the GAP Pre 73 MKIII? Will it eliminate hum in the same way?

NO!

the cable works fine, it will not eliminate him. 

Edited July 10, 2022 by DeeringAmps

[Xoo]

And even if the output were balanced, most hum is being generated (for want of a better word) inside the guitar, not the cable.  Get some screening paint for the guitar cavity if you want to try to minimise it (I've done it on my guitar, but not sure it made much difference!).

[RexRed]

Thanks for the answer about the cable, very helpful!