Clunky?

[iNate]

Just now, Lord Tim said:

I can tell you now that moving a clip like that does not work like that for me - and it absolutely shouldn't, that would be a massive workflow stopper, and I'd suggest most of us here either, so something else is likely going on somewhere. It might be worth opening up a fresh thread and getting some animated GIFs or video preview of what you're doing and what tools you have selected so people can help that not happen for you. It would be little wonder would get a bad impression if this is how they think it works - it really shouldn't. It works exactly as you'd expect in other DAWs for most of us here, so it's not some weird implementation.

My comments about weird implementation of features is not exclusive to the issue that I listed.  That was just something I brought up - chiefly - in response to another post from another user.

There are other areas of workflow that simply make Cakewalk not worth using for heavy audio editing, so I stopped using it for that a long time ago.  It's literally why I got Samplitude Pro X at all, and that's the only thing I use that software for - the music design work I do for sports/athletes (100% audio editing)...  In that realm, the Object Editor and Crossfade Editor are "Killer Features."

[Lord Tim]

Just now, iNate said:

My comments about weird implementation of features is not exclusive to the issue that I listed.  That was just something I brought up - chiefly - in response to another post from another user.

There are other areas of workflow that simply make Cakewalk not worth using for heavy audio editing, so I stopped using it for that a long time ago.  It's literally why I got Samplitude Pro X at all, and that's the only thing I use that software for - the music design work I do for sports/athletes (100% audio editing)...  In that realm, the Object Editor and Crossfade Editor are "Killer Features."

Sure, but all of the examples you mentioned in your post (eg: automation that moves with a clip, being able to adjust gain directly without changing filters, being able to move a clip to crossfade) are already implemented with single click workflows and follow exactly the same conventions as other DAWs do already. This is exactly going back to my previous post that people don't see them in CbB and go "well my other DAW has it, this is lacking" and write it off.

I'm not blindly defending anything here, scroll back up to my list of stuff I'd like to see fixed just for a start. There's absolutely areas that need improving and other DAWs that do it in a way that some people may find way more intuitive - absolutely 100% agree - but I think education is actually one of the big failings we have at the moment. We have a DAW that is very quick with features that are at least on parity with most other DAWs, but people aren't discovering them.

[iNate]

So, I can send a only the portion of audio in the clip on the timeline to an external editor without bouncing the clip to its own audio file first?

EDIT:  Just checked.  Answer is no.

Edited June 13, 2023 by iNate

[Lord Tim]

Just now, iNate said:

So, I can send a only the portion of audio in the clip on the timeline to an external editor without bouncing the clip to its own audio file first?

No, this is an area that needs improving.

I'm not here for an argument about it, though. If there's areas that need looking at, it should be looked at. All I'm saying is that a lot of stuff that people say is lacking or slower may not be.

[iNate]

28 minutes ago, Lord Tim said:

No, this is an area that needs improving.

I'm not here for an argument about it, though. If there's areas that need looking at, it should be looked at. All I'm saying is that a lot of stuff that people say is lacking or slower may not be.

Neither am I, but when you say:

32 minutes ago, Lord Tim said:

Sure, but all of the examples you mentioned in your post

Why should I not question it?

Cakewalk doesn't have Clip/Object Automation, Lol.  It doesn't have anything like Samplitude or Cubase's Crossfade Editor - though I simply stated that it would be nice if it got something like Cubase's (which isn't as good, but very serviceable).  No button can fix the Staff View sync issues. The thing about the object editor wasn't about whether or not you could "actually" do this in Cakewalk.

My point was that clicking on an object and having all of that there and directly accessible is actually a faster way to work than going through menus and eyeballing things in the arranger.  It's a matter of workflow efficienicy, not literal "functional capability."

Quoting myself:

Quote

The object editor fade panel is there for a faster workflow.  It's a much more precise way of working vs. eyeballing things in the arranger, as a lot of things that take multiple clicks in Cakewalk can be done directly with one click in the Samplitude Pro X Object Editor.

No, you cannot change the type of fade curve in Cakewalk with "One Click" or "One Button."  You can't adjust the time stretching for a clip as quickly as in the object editor.  You cannot change the degree of a fade as easily or as quickly - or as precisely as the object editor.

Yes, it can all be done, at least mostly... but it won't be done as quickly or as easily.  That is why the Object Editor exists in that application.  Otherwise, they'd have just done it the way most other DAWs do it.

None of that (specifically, on that sub-topic) was stated as a condemnation of Cakewalk.  It was stated in reply to that post to explain why the object editor existed with those controls despite the fact that Samplitude has had a dedicated Crossfade Editor and has allowed editing fades in the arranger for decades - and the fact that those controls can be access elsewhere (via [context] menus, hotkeys, etc.).

Samplitude Pro X has its own issues, and MAGIX is very aware of what I have to say about them 😛

The person upthread is using Samplitude Pro X4 as an example, but you couldn't even get 60 FPS UI performance when scrolling a decently-sized project with lots of objects in it.  You'd be lucky if you got 30 FPS scrolling performances in that version of Samplitude Pro X, Lol.  They didn't really [actually] fix that until Pro X6.

Edited June 13, 2023 by iNate

[iNate]

All in all, most [Edit:] DAWs in the "Professional" market segment have vast overlap in feature set, so the fact that it's a "complex piece" of software is a complete non-factor.  This applies equally to all DAWs - even the simpler choices on the market.

If there is a widely held sentiment among people who try the software that it is "clunky" (whatever that means at that point in time to that particular person), than that is something that warrants investigation.  Telling users to educate themselves isn't going to work, because they have too many viable options available and it is often easier to download trials and choose a competing product that delivers less "onboard friction" for that user than to wade through a Reference Guide - or post on a forum/subreddit and stalk for replies.

That was the prevailing point of my reply to you.

Most people will bias to the software they use, so you're preaching to the choir when you say that.  The users who are delivering those opinions and choosing competing products are generally not going to come here to read that.  The software has to do that for itself, by delivering the best possible user experience it can to those users.

With the software going commercial again, this will be even more important in the future.

Edited June 13, 2023 by iNate

[msmcleod]

@iNate - most clip automation operations can be done with the mouse, without having to revert to context menus.  It's a matter of knowing when to use SHIFT or CTRL, and the hit-spots within the clip - i.e. bottom half, top half, and header.

For example:



Additionally, I tend to bind  the "\" key to "Toggle Track/Clip Gain in the Edit Filter" so I can switch back and forward between clips and clip automation easily:

As far as clip stretching - CTRL + SHIFT when dragging the ends of a clip will stretch the clip.

Most clip operations (including stretching) can also be done in the clip inspector,  and if more than one clip is selected, it'll change the properties of all clips in the selection.

 

[John Vere]

That’s funny because the above stuff qualifies as clunky 😸

[Max Arwood]

Clips can be crossfaded without the Extra menu clip editor. Fades and all the stuff you can do in cake, can be done in samplitude as well.  There are several ways to do clip fades not just the clip editor.  But, the editor is good for more detail. It is also very easy to add several FX effects per clip.  Rearranging them and deleting them is very easy.  Clip gain is easy too. It is already on every clip just put nodes on it or move the whole thing. In cakewalk you have to go click the track header and change the edit filter to clip gain. You don’t have to setup the  clip gain in Samp it’s always there. 
There are things you do in programming to help the user work faster. One of my favorite things is to always put the most used function on the top of menu choices etc. Just thought - every time you add a new track folder to cakewalk , what is the second thing you do?  Type in the title of the  folder. The cursor should be setting there waiting on your text. There are hundreds of these. Many are very minor but add up after several hours of work. 

Edited June 14, 2023 by Max Arwood

[Max Arwood]

17 hours ago, Lord Tim said:

To me, if this was the only way to adjust fades and all of that, I'd call THAT clunky because in CbB you can do a lot of things right from the Track View. As it is, there's a lot of this in the Clip Inspector.  Some good ideas in that, though

You can do them both ways in samplitude. Fades,cross fades etc. You can grab the clip end and easily do a fade just like cakewalk. Multiple ways on many things just like cakewalk. 

Edited June 14, 2023 by Max Arwood

[iNate]

1 hour ago, Max Arwood said:

You can do them both ways in samplitude. Fades,cross fades etc. You can grab the clip end and easily do a fade just like cakewalk. Multiple ways on many things just like cakewalk. 

Yea. I responded largely to this to explain why MAGIX has set up that DAW with redundant ways to accomplish things, and it kind of got derailed.  That is why I made my [previously] final response and didn't bother responding beyond that.  It wasn't the actual point of my response to the other person I responded to.  They just tunnel visioned on some less important details and took it from there, completely ignoring the overarching point I was trying to get across.

-----

I think the Track Folder thing is a complete non-factor and automatically putting the user in an active text field feels like a bad idea.  Sometimes, when building a template and setting up a project, you are creating multiple different types of track in quick succession.  Having to <ESC> out of a text field simply because you created a folder before creating more Audio and/or MIDI Tracks to put in it will feel awful - practically speaking.

That sounds like a great idea, but it isn't.  The minute something like that launches, dozens of people will show up here wondering who asked for this, and why anyone thought it was a good idea to put it in the application [as a default].

I think if the folder is created from a key bind, it should just appear in the arranger with a template name, but there should also be a menu option that pops up a dialog that allows you to create a folder and set things like Track Color and Name from there.  That's how many DAWs handle new track creation, anyway.

Maybe setting it as an option that is off-by-default is a decent compromise, but even that seems like a waste to me.

Edited June 14, 2023 by iNate

[Andres Medina]

To add a bit more info and context to the video implementation thing:

Out of curiosity I downloaded the trial versions of Reaper and Studio One.

Overall I was surprised to see in practice how good is CW! it really is outstanding in several areas beyond workflow, and the amount of features is amazing. 

Regarding the video, I can confirm that CW is sadly still a small step behind, as both Reaper and Studio One has the ability to just move the video track around, and add some basic video editing as well. I wouldn't expect CW to really handle video editing at all: just the basic capacity to move the video over the timeline will suffice. It makes the workflow unnecessary complicated, and anyone using video in their projects certainly will benefit of it. 

Edited June 14, 2023 by Andres Medina

[Max Arwood]

5 hours ago, iNate said:

think the Track Folder thing is a complete non-factor and automatically putting the user in an active text field feels like a bad idea

It wasn’t exactly/only talking  about track folders, but any time a computer can save me 3 seconds, that is what I expect it to do. Any place that can be less clicks is a bonus. It looks like there would be a branch in the programming. If multiple folder are needed with no title there should be a way to do this as well. The size of the Samp clip editor is a bonus as well. It is one dialogue with 3 sets of multi-function controls. Only one thing I would add  would be to implement a mix slider/knob on the plug-in page.  
 

Added->
if you are adding multiple track folders, should there be a dialogue to add more than one at a time?

Edited June 14, 2023 by Max Arwood
Added

[iNate]

3 hours ago, Max Arwood said:

It wasn’t exactly/only talking  about track folders, but any time a computer can save me 3 seconds, that is what I expect it to do. Any place that can be less clicks is a bonus. It looks like there would be a branch in the programming. If multiple folder are needed with no title there should be a way to do this as well. The size of the Samp clip editor is a bonus as well. It is one dialogue with 3 sets of multi-function controls. Only one thing I would add  would be to implement a mix slider/knob on the plug-in page.  

The Object Editor can be expanded to different sizes, including one that shows everything on one screen.  Umm, it can be undocked and moved to wherever you want it.

The problem with your suggestion is that it is too isolated to a niche personal preference.  For most people, it will increase the number of button presses or clicks while setting up projects because they will constantly have to exit out of the text field when adding tracks.  That involves either clicking out of it or an additional <ESC> button press.

Quote

Added->
if you are adding multiple track folders, should there be a dialogue to add more than one at a time?

In most DAWs the add track dialog allows you to specify the type of track as well as the number of tracks to add.  Simply adding a track via a mouse gesture (like double clicking in the track header section) adds an unnamed track of the last type explicitly created. That's the assumption I run with 😛

5 hours ago, Andres Medina said:

it really is outstanding in several areas beyond workflow, and the amount of features is amazing.

I have Studio One 6 Professional and there is a pretty sizable feature disparity in Studio One's favor when compared to Cakewalk - in the realms of both audio and MIDI.  I've always held the belief that Cakewalk would have been [in 2018] where Studio One is [now] had they kept focus on developing the core product instead of bundling plug-ins, sample packs and virtual instruments.  Most people who have gone there won't be itching to come back.

Cakewalk is more comparable to the Studio One Artist SKU, at this point.

I know it's cliche, but REAPER is not my cup of tea because I can't stand looking at it, and theming doesn't do enough to remedy the chronic lack of design effort being put into that application.

And I don't think editing video should be that important in music production/composition software.  Basic Video support is good enough, for those composing to video.

Edited June 14, 2023 by iNate

[Andres Medina]

56 minutes ago, iNate said:

The Object Editor can be expanded to different sizes, including one that shows everything on one screen.  Umm, it can be undocked and moved to wherever you want it.

The problem with your suggestion is that it is too isolated to a niche personal preference.  For most people, it will increase the number of button presses or clicks while setting up projects because they will constantly have to exit out of the text field when adding tracks.  That involves either clicking out of it or an additional <ESC> button press.

In most DAWs the add track dialog allows you to specify the type of track as well as the number of tracks to add.  Simply adding a track via a mouse gesture (like double clicking in the track header section) adds an unnamed track of the last type explicitly created. That's the assumption I run with 😛

I have Studio One 6 Professional and there is a pretty sizable feature disparity in Studio One's favor when compared to Cakewalk - in the realms of both audio and MIDI.  I've always held the belief that Cakewalk would have been [in 2018] where Studio One is [now] had they kept focus on developing the core product instead of bundling plug-ins, sample packs and virtual instruments.  Most people who have gone there won't be itching to come back.

Cakewalk is more comparable to the Studio One Artist SKU, at this point.

I know it's cliche, but REAPER is not my cup of tea because I can't stand looking at it, and theming doesn't do enough to remedy the chronic lack of design effort being put into that application.

And I don't think editing video should be that important in music production/composition software.  Basic Video support is good enough, for those composing to video.

Yes, Reaper seemed poorly designed to me too. Specially the menus and the audio configuration - very odd.

Studio One has a slightly different approach by separating certain tasks into modules (recording - playing live - mastering- etc). Not what I need, but very user oriented. So far, would be my second choice of DAW right now.

Regarding video, I consider moving a video clip a very basic feature, and currently is not implemented.

[iNate]

9 hours ago, Andres Medina said:

Regarding video, I consider moving a video clip a very basic feature, and currently is not implemented.

Others on the forum have asked for video editing features, so I'm referring to that.

Basic video support is a given.  Being able to move a video clip is kind of expected for working to video.

[Max Arwood]

“Nate:if you are adding multiple track folders In most DAWs the add track dialog allows you to specify the type of track as well as the number of tracks to add”

Should the add “track” dialogue say

add track ….

next dialogue Audio =___? (How many), 

                               Midi =___? (How many)

                           Folders =___? (How many)

                                   Sub audio= ___? (How many)

                                    Sub Midi = ___? (How many)

 

This could all be added at one time. 

[Larioso]

12 hours ago, Andres Medina said:

Regarding video, I consider moving a video clip a very basic feature, and currently is not implemented.

Are you aware of this setting in Aud.ini?

"

VideoEngine=<0 or 1>

Boolean

1

This variable goes in the [Video] section, and specifies the default video engine. For example:

[Video]

VideoEngine=1

The values are as follows:

0 = DirectShow engine

1 = Media Foundation engine

"

 

Then you can use the offset settings available on videotrack.

- but have not tried this if any instability or so

 

I felt Media Foundation worked so well, so made preview videos with 8s black frames as start instead, to get frames into timeline.

[Andres Medina]

2 hours ago, Larioso said:

Are you aware of this setting in Aud.ini?

"

VideoEngine=<0 or 1>

Boolean

1

This variable goes in the [Video] section, and specifies the default video engine. For example:

[Video]

VideoEngine=1

The values are as follows:

0 = DirectShow engine

1 = Media Foundation engine

"

 

Then you can use the offset settings available on videotrack.

- but have not tried this if any instability or so

 

I felt Media Foundation worked so well, so made preview videos with 8s black frames as start instead, to get frames into timeline.

Thanks! Yes, it was posted somewhere before, as the old Direct show is able to offset the video. But is the old engine...

I already have a workflow of converting the video in an external video editor and adding 5 secs of blank at the beginning to get room.

Edited June 15, 2023 by Andres Medina

[Lord Tim]

Yep, that is the workaround. You can't use a lot of modern video formats when you switch to the older engine, but it does let you move the video around. Not a great compromise, honestly, and only one of a few shortcomings in the Video View workflow. 

I tend to do the same thing by prepping my video in an NLE first and sorting all of the timing out before getting in into CbB and it works well for me, but if you've been delivered a ProRes 4:2:2 MOV file from a production house to score the soundtrack, with specific SMTPE timing points, etc. this whole workaround falls over pretty fast. This is definitely on my list of must-fix things for this particular area.