Making music is expensive, my RME Fireface II died...

[RexRed]

Making music is expensive, my RME Fireface II died...

Apparently there is a soldering issue, RME says it is not my fault. I got a "bootloader memory" message during start up of the unit.

I had about 6 months of bliss and now I am back using the Behringer U-Phoria UMC-1820.

Immediately, I have again noticed the lack of transient quality in my voice in returning to using the Behringer unit.

It may take two to three months for the Fireface unit to go back to Germany to be fixed.

This leaves my music in a sorry state.

To date, I have not found any other audio interface that reproduces my voice right, other than the RME device.

I am still paying off the RME device on my credit card.

These devices costing so much, running so terribly hot and, in this case, being so unreliable leaves my music in a costly and fragile state of affairs...

https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=34532

One caveat of using the Behringers is, new audio tracks insert into track view instantly again.

There was a couple second delay with the Fireface device.

My vocals will sound terrible for a few months.

Edited July 3, 2022 by RexRed

[John Vere]

I believe you!  But am also amazed that there could be THAT much difference in the pre amps?

Most of the gear snobs will argue  on sites like  Gearspace for pages and pages on this topic.  Probably a zillion posts about pre amps and how they do or don't vary that much anymore. But pre amps to me are the most critical part of the recording signal chain. I'm about to toss my Motu M4 in the trash for this and other reasons.

I'm sorry Motu, but your pre amps and drivers suck compared to my Focusrite and Tascam units.  But both of those are on the edge of driver support being 10 years and older.  I need to have a modern interface and the funny thing is I was going to hold out to raise enough cash for the RME baby face. 

In the mean time I dusted off my Joe Meek 3Q ( stand alone Preamp)  to see if that will solve the Motu pre amp weirdness I'm getting.

Possibly owning a dedicated top quality pre amp is a better investment than upgrading an interface? 

[RexRed]

Hello John,

Thanks for your response here.

There seems to be some common opinion among sound tech specialists that there is no difference among digital audio recorders.

This could not be farther from the truth.

The fact that many of them use the same chips does not negate the fact that these audio chips vary widely from other audio chips.

I like to use the camera analogy.

No one will argue that some camera sensors are great in low light and some are great for sports shots.

Some cameras have overheating issues and some are loaded with megapixels but have terrible auto focus.

Audio is no different. These sound engineers who say all audio interfaces are alike have no conception of the actual technology that goes into them.

Yes they can all have relatively the same low noise floors but how they handle transients is entirely a different matter.

Once your ear is trained to hear poor reproduction of transients by an audio interface you can't unhear it.

You will notice it every time, even the slightest bit.

This is why I am hesitant to buy any run-of-the-mill audio interface including name brands.

They all handle transients horrible.

Many new products are coming out on the market and I am leery of even trying them.

When you have owned as many of them as I have and they are all terrible this can hinder willingness to buy.

Then you become willing to pay thousands for one that will give you good transients and plenty of ins and outs.

Even if they break down easy and break the bank.

Sound tech reviewers seem to imply there are so many bits and so many megahertz but there is more to a sensor than bits and mhz.

Transients require the sensor to respond with a variable burst of sample density.

This is where most audio interfaces fall short even if they are running in 24 bit 96khz...

[msmcleod]

The sound quality difference for the preamps doesn't surprise me to be honest.  The converters in the Behringer gear are absolutely fine, but the preamps themselves sound really harsh to my ears.  RME on the other hand, have top of the range pre-amps.

@RexRed - As long as you're recording line-level signals, the Behringer should sound fine.  So if you've got any other mic-pre's you can use in the meantime, just to get it up to line level, I'd give them a try.  

 

[AndyB01]

Rex, sorry to hear about your gear issues, can you claim against the credit card Co as a faulty good or is the unit too old for that so you're stuck with a RTB repair?

For some perspective, from listening to your stuff, I reckon you could record your vocals on a 1970s portable cassette recorder and they'd still sound pretty good to the rest of us .😉

I hope you get it sorted soon. Has to be worth a complaint to RME and ask for some compensation.

Top tip: blow some smoke, tell them you're a huge fan of their gear, long time user etc and then how let down and disappointed you are by this issue and the impact on you.

Don't write to the Complaints or Customer Service Team, do some digging and find the name of the Finance Director, HR or Operations Director - even the C/Ex or Chair.  These C-Suite folks do not appreciate getting letters from the 'great unwashed' and you're less likely to get fobbed off. Send a copy to all of them!

Oh and no emails - snail mail only - hand-written has even more impact!

I've used this tactic before and it definitely works!

Good luck getting it fixed

Andy

Edited July 4, 2022 by AndyB01

[RexRed]

With most all audio interfaces I can hear the transients are not being recorded clearly, even at 24 bit 96khz. But when I use my RME Fireface II I can hear that it does a lot better job with the transients of my voice. Now, no one I have ever talked to can hear bad reproduction of transients other than myself. But I hear the bad transient reproduction with all of the major audio interface brands I have tried, other than RME. The transients are not peaking and distorting, it is like the interfaces simply cannot focus on the beginning of sounds and reproduce them right. Why am I the only one that can hear this? It is like a variable recording rate is needed, like as in film with large explosions and fast motion to throw more bits at the beginning of words. Would 32bit floating point throw more bits at the beginning of sounds and make them more focused and clear? All I ever hear about 32 bit is that it can record louder sounds, does it not also record finer steps, more densely packed bits, and would this not improve sound quality as well?

I do not understand preamps... where my intuition seems to fault, not the preamps but the veracity at which the A/D chips throw samples at  the beginning of a word or sound. It is like each time I sing a new phrase it has to "gear up" and so it misses the clarity of the beginning of the word.

I thought this problem might have been my mic so I bought another (better) mic.

But when I bought the RME Fireface II, I notice the problem all but disappeared.

But now switching back to the Behringer I can  hear this problem clear as day again.

I had the same problem with the Steinberg UR242 and the Roland Quad Capture.

And, I do not have a mic that requires a lot of preamping as well [Audio-Technica AT4040 Cardioid Condenser Microphone].

I have a country style voice technique often where I quickly drift up to the beginning of notes at the beginning of words.

These pitch bend transients are nearly impossible for these interfaces to (hear) reproduce right.

They come out with little detail and "wonky" where the RME interface nails them almost every time.

I can't seem to come up with any real explanation as to why this is the case.

I raise my sample rates to 196khz and it still happens.

The only thing I have not tried is 32bit floating point.

I bought the Steinberg thinking it was 32bit but that was a advertising scam... (Thanks for letting me know about that, that was helpful as well.)  

Can you recommend a good inexpensive but high quality, single input microphone preamp brand?

Cloudlifter $150, ouch...

Edited July 4, 2022 by RexRed

[RexRed]

Thank you Andy for the compliment on my voice, much appreciated buddy!

I am hoping RME fixes it ASAP , it is still under warranty.

Your advice is well taken Andy, I will keep that in mind if problems arise.

Edited July 4, 2022 by RexRed

[RexRed]

Once again, contrary to my insistence, according to a YouTube audiophile, "32bit recording does not improve the quality of a recording, it only supplies more headroom". Exactly what I have been told on this forum.

This is the hardest thing for me to wrap my head around. 

Thank you msmcleod for directing my attention back toward preamps. Sorry if I have been not been paying attention.

Wouldn't this be nice if a preamp solved all of my issues I am having with transients and these interfaces.

It might mean I can use cheap interfaces again to get nice quality recordings, which I have not been able to achieve.

[RexRed]

I bought this thing.

Klark Teknik MIC BOOSTER CT 1 Compact Dynamic Microphone Booster

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MicBoostCT1--klark-teknik-mic-booster-ct-1-compact-dynamic-microphone-booster

Last one in stock.

You can be honest if you think this is crap and I should have bought a real Cloudlifter...

I am interested in your opinions. 😊

(I just hope it passes phantom power through it)

 

It has occurred to me that this booster may bring the signal into the interface higher than unity gain...?

 

 

Edited July 4, 2022 by RexRed

[John Vere]

I’m not sure what those devices are for?  I was talking about a proper mike preamp like Joe Meek, Focusrite,Dangerous or Warm audio etc. and therefore bypass audio  interfaces pre amps. Example  I connect theJoe meek to my rear panel line level inputs so it is more or less direct to the A/D 

Haven’t had a chance to do any recording for a few weeks as I’m in live gig mode right now so focused on that. But I was going to try this and see if it’s better. 
Of great interest to me is your observations on transients of vocals. This is sort of opposite of my issue because I have to turn down to a average level of -18 db to avoid clipping with the Motu. In other words it’s hyper sensitive to transients. The Focusrite is a little better but it’s disappointing sound was why I bought the Joe Meek. 
The Tascam is more like what I’m used to from old school analog mixing consoles I can hit it much harder @  -8 db and it never clips. But it was made in 2008  and drivers last updated in 2015 

I’m basically not happy these days with vocals and there’s probably a zillion reasons why so I’ll be working through the ones I can afford to fix starting with experimenting with what I have on hand. 
I’m thinking a better mike pre is in the future before waisting more cash on yet another interface or mike. I guess you can’t expect a   $600 pre amp  to be built in to a $400 interface. 

Edited July 4, 2022 by John Vere

[RexRed]

I am glad I am not the only one hearing really poor recording performance from these audio interfaces.

Preamps are the way I am going to explore.

I figure a passive mic boost will be the first step and if that does not remedy the situation I will go for an active boost.

I am not sure if passive/active are even the right terms but they seem to fit the situation. 

I think my mic may require a lot of preamp gain...

That may have been the problem all along.

A poor boost lifting the noise floor (creating harsh sibilance) may be what is obliterating my transients.

It would be nice if this is the case then it would make a lot of my audio interfaces useable again.

 

Notice, the preamp used for the narrator in this video is perhaps the worst thing I have ever heard (robotic)... 😊

 

Edited July 4, 2022 by RexRed

[Tezza]

Sounds like you are using dynamic microphones into run of the mill audio interfaces. They don't handle dynamic mics that well, it causes you to turn up the gain on the preamp which can lead to harshness. Perhaps the RME is better for this? I have the same problem running an SM58 into my UR44 directly. The cloudlifter solutions apparently do work, plenty of podcasters use them with the sm7b for example. They also introduce a little noise but it seems the opinion is that the trade off is in favor of the cloud lifter, rather than running the gain super high on the audio interface preamp.

I haven't yet tried one myself so can't give a personal opinion but have been considering one for some narration and also to lay down scatch vocals for songs, since I can only use the condenser mics at certain times due to them picking up every conceivable noise during the day.

The cloudlifter devices provide about 25db gain on a dynamic mic so they say, and run from the phantom power on your audio interface, you plug it in on the end of the mic or somewhere between the mic and the audio interface depending on what model you get.

[RexRed]

Thanks Tezza for the input! This is like assembling a puzzle and each piece helps complete the picture.

Okay this is my plan.

To try the  Klark Teknik MIC BOOSTER CT 1 on my microphone with the Behringer.

If it fixes the problem then I will research other preamps.

I might get a tube preamp.

Any suggestions on the best tube preamps that are around or just under 1000 dollars?

It would be nice to be able to plug in either a guitar or a microphone into it.

I am using a cheap 25 dollar boost pedal on my Les Paul style guitar because its pickups have such a low output.

Maybe some solid state preamp suggestions of the same caliber?

I am not sure I want to mess with tubes that can easily blow...

And, I can always add harmonics to my sound after it is recorded.

I am just looking for a stable and robust mic (and guitar) signal.

Edited July 4, 2022 by RexRed

[Starship Krupa]

12 hours ago, RexRed said:

Once your ear is trained to hear poor reproduction of transients by an audio interface you can't unhear it.

Oh this, for sure. Thank you. Not many seem to be aware of it, even in the audio engineering world. I'd expand that to "poor reproduction of transients by any part of the audio chain." I usually describe it by saying it sounds like a poorly-encoded MP3.

I have long stories about this, but the first time I became aware of it was 20 years ago when I read the term "bit-perfect" in regard to digital. I had been doing 44.1K DAT transfers into the S/PDIF port of a Soundblaster Live. Then I read about how the chip on the Soundblaster operated only at 48K did a resample to 48K then back down to 44.1. It would actually resample 48K for whatever reason.

There were also plans for a little adapter board (about 5 components) to enable non-resampled S/PDIF input on cards that used a CMedia chip. Those could be had for under $20, so I put together the adapter circuit and tried a transfer of my girlfriend's album to see if I could hear any difference. I had already done the transfer into the Live, so I would have the two to compare.

When I hit play I was knocked out, I mean, emotionally. Previously it had sounded fine, no issues, clear. But now it was like there was a hologram of my girlfriend floating between the monitors. She was away on vacation and I had been missing her, and the experience was so emotional I started to tear up. When she got back from her trip, I played it for her, and she started crying, because it was the first time she had heard the album the way it sounded in the studio, and the sound took her back to when she recorded it.

Once your ears learn to perceive it, it's not subtle at all. My 61-year-old ears have no trouble. Neil Young, and god knows that guy has played some LOUD gigs, is a big advocate for hi-res pure digital reproduction for this reason. It affects the emotional response to the music.

I've heard it in recording/playback interfaces, even in power amplifiers (I have an Alesis RA-100 that sounded constricted in that same way until I modded the circuit). Electronics engineer types don't like talk about this because it's not something that's easily measured with test equipment (or at least it's not part of the usual frequency response and harmonic distortion tests that they rely on). They'll try to assert that it's "placebo effect" or whatever. I've learned by this time what to listen for, it's usually spatial information and things like reverb tails. If you follow the link, you'll see a bit of back and forth between me and a doubting electronics engineer.

With A/D D/A converters, the culprit seems to be jitter. It was a much bigger problem before the introduction of phase-locked loop technology in around 2009, so you really need to be careful with anything produced before (or even a little after) that time.

So I don't doubt that something along the chain, the preamp, the A/D and D/A converters, any of those can mess up those important transients/detail. It's documented. The idea that all interfaces (and amplifiers and even DAW audio engines) sound alike is a fantasy. Theoretically they should, but we don't live in a theoretical world. Design choices and corner-cutting and mistakes happen.

As for your preamp issue, it does sound like you could benefit from putting a good mic preamp in front of your interface. The less work the inputs of the interface have to do as far as amplification, the more neutral they're likely to sound, and preamps have their own characteristics as far as sound coloration.

There are plenty of choices in the under $1000 realm. Due to your concerns about tubes, look into one that uses FET's. Me, I'm thinking of building a mic preamp with transformer inputs because I know that the human ear likes what transformers do to color sound. I would like a preamp with a transformer front end. Not that I'm unhappy with the ones in my Focusrite interface at this time. Focusrite's preamps have a good rep in the prosumer world and I know that they pay attention to them. I've also been eyeing that FMR Really Nice Preamp.

I use Audio Technica mics (AT2020 and AT3035) and AFAIK there is no difference in their output level to other condenser mics.

Please try an A/B between your Behringer and the RME once you get it back. I'm very curious.

Edited July 4, 2022 by Starship Krupa

[msmcleod]

@RexRed - the CloudLifter and Klark Teknik MIC BOOSTER CT 1 are designed for boosting the signal of low output dynamic microphones, most commonly the Shure SM7B.  Normally dynamic microphones don't use +48V phantom power. What these devices do is use the phantom power to boost the signal before you plug it into a mic pre-amp.  This saves you having to put the mic-pre on full gain ( which raises the pre-amps noise floor ). 

I doubt it'll work in your situation as:
1.  It'll steal the +48V phantom power needed by your condenser mic
2.  The level it boosts by is fairly small compared to what a preamp does get it to line level
3.  You may have impedance matching problems

[RexRed]

Warm Audio WA12 MKII Microphone Preamp - Black

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/WA12MKIIBlk--warm-audio-wa12-mkii-microphone-preamp-black

Shure SM7B Cardioid Dynamic Vocal Microphone

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SM7B--shure-sm7b-cardioid-dynamic-vocal-microphone

What do you think of pairing these two items together for vocal singing/recording?

I realize the microphone is mostly used for podcasting but it has also been used for singing.

 I think it is a high quality microphone that is low priced due to its popularity (lower priced than many other professional mics).

Edited July 4, 2022 by RexRed

[msmcleod]

8 minutes ago, RexRed said:

What do you think of pairing these two items together for vocal singing recording?

Warm Audio WA12 MKII Microphone Preamp - Black

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/WA12MKIIBlk--warm-audio-wa12-mkii-microphone-preamp-black

Shure SM7B Cardioid Dynamic Vocal Microphone

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SM7B--shure-sm7b-cardioid-dynamic-vocal-microphone

What do you think of pairing these two items together for vocal singing/recording?

I realize the microphone is mostly used for podcasting but it has also been used for singing.

 I think it is a high quality microphone that is low priced due to its popularity (lower priced than many other professional mics).

Both these microphones are very good.

The SM7B will work well with your Klark Teknik CT 1.

It really depends on whether they suit your voice or not.
 

[Starship Krupa]

I like this one better because it's $180 less 😁:

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/WA12MKII--warm-audio-wa12-mkii-microphone-instrument-preamp

Looks like it has a nice fat input transformer sitting in the middle of the box.

[RexRed]

Since the Klark is on the way, I might as well go for this Shure SM7B.

And this Warm Premap will get me into the ballpark (I think) and also work with my electric guitar and bass (and other instruments). 

[RexRed]

1 minute ago, Starship Krupa said:

I like this one better because it's $180 less 😁:

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/WA12MKII--warm-audio-wa12-mkii-microphone-instrument-preamp

Looks like it has a nice fat input transformer sitting in the middle of the box.

Yes I saw that less expensive version. The transformer does not look as good inside that and there is more inside the newer version.