User 905133

Are you referencing the FAQ I linked to in my post or a different FAQ? If you mean the one I linked, I did not see any reference to "Wave Sets" being mentioned. Is it possible that by "Wave Sets" you mean the st3i and st4i files? Hmmmmm. I suppose if st3i and st4i files contain what I know of as samples, multisamples, and presets, then maybe "Wave Sets" = "st3i and st4i files?" If so, does IK have a glossary of the terms and phrases it uses? I only know of "Wave Sets" from seeing that section in Syntronik 2 and I have never looked into the structure and use of st3i and st4i files. Is there a document that goes into those details?

@Peter - IK Multimedia Are you saying that IK lacks the ability to upgrade the presets? I have seen other companies who have recompiled samples, multisamples, and presets to make them work in newer versions of their synths. I totally get that IK chose not upgrade the presets from the start, but I hope you can see that by IK saying CS and SE host previously purchased synths while Full and MAX upgrade previously purchased synths, consumers may have been led to believe by the website that previously purchased presets packaged with the synths would be upgraded, (not just the synth engine). In case its not clear, saying that "Because v1 presets don't and cannot contain the Wave Sets that are mentioned in the FAQ so it would be literally impossible to edit them in the same way as V2 presets." does not mean that the v1 presets cannot be upgraded to v 2 in ways that other companies have recompiled samples, multisamples, and presets. I fully recognize that IK might not have the ability to upgrade the previously purchased v1 presets to v2 presets the way other companies have recompiled resources. That's why I am asking.

Yesterday, independent of these two posts, I wrote a draft of an analysis of how bypassing likely played a role in the confusion - frustration - dissatisfaction chain of reactions related to the upgrade/update to MODO DRUM based on different ways in which "1.5" was linked to "MODO DUM." At the end I distanced myself from what I saw as IK bashing on the part of some IK product users since I wanted to emphasize a positive, constructive approach. Unfortunately, new posts erase the forum reply edit buffer and I don't think I saved it in notepad. Found it! (See below.) Decades ago I learned to dislike what I call "defense wars" when it comes to communication. From what I have seen, it doesn't lead to positive outcomes. On the other hand, I believe that reaching out in openness can often resolve issues including those based on miscommunication. I didn't finish the last sentence because I was grappling with how to say say something like, "show how words and their presentation can lead to misunderstandings," "build a bridge between consumers and IK," and a few other similar ideas. I had more or less decided not to post this, but based on the two quotes above (what I saw as IK bashing + a defensive grenade launched as a reply) I decided it is relevant and might even serve a useful purpose. ------------- @Peter - IK Multimedia As for the main topic (the Syntronik 2 Group Buy), just so you know, I have repeatedly stated in several places that I really like (a) having four "Oscillator" layers and (b) the option to choose from the wave sets to tweak/design my own presets. As for my own consumer behavior I am still open to participating in the Group Buy even though it might be better for me personally to wait. So, please don't lump me into the category with "IK bashers" because I have tried to explain what I see as "bypassing."

We will have to agree to disagree. I have looked at other instances of the customer confusion and have seem similar instances of miscommunication. I was trying to be helpful because I have noticed among IK users what be might called be a love-hate relationship: Many users really love the virtual gear and at the same time have major issues with things IK does and doesn't do. I could be wrong but to me the issues seem to cause things like confusion, frustration, disappointment and in some cases resentment of how IK treats customers. As I wrote above: By the way, as for this (the prior reference to transparency) to which you say I misunderstood your reply: I agree completely. In fact I agreed when I first read it. In addition, I went a few steps beyond and offered an explanation from communication theory for how I believe the confusion and miscommunication was based on what's known as "bypassing." Unfortunately, based on your reply it seems to me that you did not appreciate my explanation. I was hoping you would see the value in it. I stand by my analysis which I offered freely and openly of how in this case "bypassing" led to repeated attempts by several IK consumers to get clarification.

Thanks for bring this up and for all the discussion points raised. Its been a while since I explored the interactions between screensets and workspaces and the implications for personal workflows. I tend only to use workspaces nowadays because they meet my needs quite well. But, the discussion has been giving me some ideas for new workflows that make use of both. I probably won't have time for another deep dive myself for a few weeks (maybe some mini shallow dives), so I'd be interested in what others have to say. For example, I have not yet explored locking screensets in project templates (official templates or project files used as de facto templates), creating projects based on templates, and then switching workspaces. Also, I am not sure if and how the workflows would be different depending on the "[ ] Apply Workspace on Project Load" setting (checked v. uncheck). If anyone knows (or does the explorations) I'd be interested.

For all practical purposes, it means it will play sounds that you own from Syntronik 1 and Syntronik 1 Deluxe, but they will not be editable in Syntronik 2. For that you need the full or MAX version which will upgrade the sounds (as opposed to merely hosting them). 2022-04-22 UPDATE: Based on what I had been reading from IK at the time, it seemed that my above comment was true. However, over the past few days there has been additional discussion both here and in other forums and it now seems my references to playing and upgrading "sounds" wasn't the complete picture. Based on recently posted discussions: I now believe that to IK "synths" refers to what I would call "the underlying synth engine" as opposed to what can be called "content" (presets, samples, etc.). I now believe that IK did NOT intend to mean that "previously purchased synths" included the "instrument presets." In other words to IK, "synth" meant "synth engine" not "synth product." In short, "upgrades previously purchased synths" does not refer to previously purchased instrument presets. With this recent clarification I now understand that: In terms of CS and SE "hosts previously purchased synths" means they will play sounds that we own from Syntronik 1 and Syntronik 1 Deluxe (as I said). In terms of Full and MAX, "upgrades previously purchased synths" means that we now get an upgraded synth engine which: can be used to edit new presets (factory and user) using: the new Edit Panel, including up to 4 "Oscillator" layers what IK calls "wave sets" Regarding my original post: For all practical purposes, any version of Syntronik 2 will play sounds presets that you own from Syntronik 1 and Syntronik 1 Deluxe, but they will not be editable using the new Syntronik 2 Edit Panel. They can still be edited using the Syntronik [1] style virtual hardware edit panel which is included in Syntronik 2. For recent details see, the IK FAQ sheet here.

There is a communication concept known as bypassing. One person (or party) "knows" what it means by the words and phrases it chooses (and the way information is presented). However, the meaning others get is different than what the person (or party) intends. When I see words like "clearly," "obviously," "completely transparent," and "more than people seem to think" as used in the above, I get the impression that there has been a lack of recognition of responsibility in the miscommunication. "We said it clearly. [Hyperbolized implication to get the point across:] Its your problem that you didn't understand what we intended by our words." Based on what I have seen many people in various forums (not just here) are confused or have been led astray by the words (and presentation) chosen to communicate Syntronik 2 messaging. Please recognize the importance of people who buy and use IK's products when they tell you they did not read into IK's words (and presentation) and automatically understood what was clear to those on the inside. The "obvious," "completely transparent" explanation above ("you cannot edit V1 content that has wave sets that aren't there") is a meaning that in-house people (insiders) would have by virture of their existing familiarity with the product and the way IK uses language. The way I see it from the discussions of the issues, it is not at all obvious to others who don't have that insider knowledge. Sorry to have to say this, but the people who have been trying to get clarification are not in error by seeking clarification if that's what you are implying by "clearly," "obviously," "completely transparent," and "more than people think." IK "knew" what they intended to mean. However, the intended meaning to many was unclear/confusing. Consider this specific example: IK may have intended "Hosts previously purchased synths" and "Upgrades previously purchased synths" only to refer to what I and maybe others would call the underlying synth engine. However, perhaps many users of Syntronik (like myself) consider the synths as products to include the instrument presets we acquired when we purchased the Syntronik synths. Finally after almost two months of trying to get clarification, I think I have now come to understand what IK may have meant by the words as presented. To me this is a classic case of "bypassing:" IK meant one thing by the language and presentation above [synths = underlying synth engine only]; however, some of us considered presets to be included in the "previously purchased synths" [synths = synth products]. Communication is interactional. To some of us, it was not at all clear or obvious what IK intended to mean. So we sought clarification.

To lower the ledger lines an octave, try changing the clef to 8va Treble if the original uses a Treble Clef.

I do not work for Cakewalk, but I was wondering about your post. Are you saying that adding a specific midi device (your drumpad), Cakewalk adds audio feedback (squealing)? If you mean it creates midi feedback, to me that suggests a routing issue possibly related to midi data being re-sent over and over (aka a midi loop). You seem to be suggesting it is a Cakewalk bug, but perhaps it can be fixed by changing your midi routing or gear settings. Now that I think about it, I used to have a drum machine midi loop issue (play a note or pattern and the midi data would be re-sent over and over), but that was a few decades ago. IIRC the issue was caused by midi out from the hardware going into the software and then midi out from the software going back into the hardware and the hardware resending the incoming midi data. Just trying to be helpful. Maybe you ruled the midi loop issue out already?

Yup!!!! In looking at the SYN2 versions of the same old instruments that come with Syntronik 2, the number of Generation 2 presets is small compared to the number of Generation 1 presets. I stopped making my table of G1 and G2 presets (numbers of each only, not preset lists), to try to work on the "hosting" v. "upgrading" issue. Now that I know it is a waste of time uninstalling/reinstalling to try to get the G1 presets to work with the new Edit Panel, I will probably get back to the table. Oh, in case you wonder why I just don't ask IK, I did--about two months ago--before I decided that if I want to have better numbers/details than on the IK site, I'd have to compile my own table. That being said, I really like the ability to layer up to four "oscillators" by using the wave sets that come with SYN2. For my own music tastes, this is the real power of the new version. If you haven't checked it out yet and you like doing sound design/tweaking, I'd recommend looking at some Generation 2 presets and giving the different wave sets a listen. We can layer up to four, and can adjust fine tuning and drifty on/off. Syntronik 2 CS is not sufficient to test the wave sets because the CS version (a "lite" version) doesn't provide all of the wavesets SE and Full (and I assume MAX) have. I believe the CS presets have only 1 (or 2 at most) wave set choices. From what I have seen the other SYN2 Instruments (purchased or promos) do have quite a number of wavesets. For example, with VCF3, I counted (multiple times!!) 106 Generation 1 presets and 28 Generation 2 presets. However, there are 42 wave set choices. JMO: Personally, as I told IK, I think if they were to provide the details, they might well motivate consumers as opposed to just putting misleading aggregate numbers in the comparison table. As I went from CS to SE to Full, my disappointment at the G 1 editing limitation and the small number of G 2 presets was lessened by having 4 layers to assign a large number of wave set options. Like everything, there are advantages and disadvantages (some of which I have tried to point out here).

That's about where I am too.. What I don't like about IKPM: It lumps all sound libs together. You have to go through it one by one to see if you are missing anything. Unless I am missing something.... PITA!! I might do this, too, so I can try to sell/transfer Syntronik 2 SE or TS 3.5 before they are totally worthless. ? (Either that or wait for TS 5 MAX when all previously purchased SYN Instrument Presets are "fully editable.") ?

If you have installed Syntronik 2 completely, did you try using the new Edit Panel on presets listed as Generation 1 Presets? If so do you get anything other than the message saying you can't use the new Edit Panel with legacy presets? Over the past two days I have I tried reinstalling SYN2 once again, even moving GBs worth of stuff from my C Drive [SSD] to an external HDD. I still don't have the ability to use my previously purchased SYN Instrument Presets with the new Edit Panel. People keep saying that Syntronik 2 and Syntronik 2 MAX do something that CS and SE don't. Sometimes it seems that the difference pertains to the ability to use the new Edit Panel presets; other times its seems that the difference only pertains to the use of legacy Instruments (99, Blau, Bully, etc.). If you or anyone else has the ability to used the new Edit Panel with the full set of presets that came with Syntronik and Syntronik Deluxe without having to manually reconstruct them (i.e., "out of the box), I would appreciate knowing how to do it. Thanks.

removed pending additional research ADDENDUM: Discussion points raised by other Cakewalk users confirmed the results I had gotten. No need for me to knock my head against the wall to re-reconfirm. Thanks to all Cakewalk users who chimed in.

removed pending additional research ADDENDUM: Discussion points raised by other Cakewalk users confirmed the results I had gotten. No need for me to knock my head against the wall to re-reconfirm. Thanks to all Cakewalk users who chimed in.

I am still no longer trying to figure out if Syntronik 2 upgrades all my Syntronik [1] + Syntronik [1] Deluxe Instruments / Presets to Generation 2 Presets so I can (1) access all the wavesets and (2) edit them to create 4 Osc layers using the new Syntronik 2 Edit Panel. So far I have not seen that this is possible. After extensive research, I have concluded that (1) the underlying synth engine has been updated but (2) the previously purchased presets have not been updated (nor at the present does it look like they will be updated). However, a number new presets in the new configuration have been added and we can create our own if we tweak what IK lists as Syntronik 2 presets under the "Generation" category.** CLARIFICATIONS: So far it has been impossible for me to find out from IKM how many of those over 4,000 presets are Generation 2 and how many are Generation 1. Likewise the individually purchased SYN2 Instrument products do not have the details of how many of the included presets are of each generation and therefore can be edited using the new Edit Panel. According to the IKM Website: Syntronik 2 CS hosts previously purchased synths Syntronik 2 SE hosts previously purchased synths Syntronik 2 upgrades previously purchased synths Syntronik 2 MAX upgrades previously purchased synths I made the mistake of inferring that this meant CS and SE would let me play all my Syntronik [1] presets and Syntronic [1] Deluxe presets and that Syntronik 2 and Syntronik 2 Max would also let me use the new Edit Panel with previously purchased presets. So far as I can tell, this was my error (along with some other consumers if IK synths). After purchasing SE and Syntronik 2 and after considerable exploration of presets I suspect have concluded that by "upgrades previously purchased synths" IK means that for owners of Syntronik [1] and Syntronik [1] Deluxe we get control do not get Syntronik 2 versions of our presets, but we do get a new, improved synth engine that gives us the use of the full set of Syntronik 2 wavesets for the previously purchased synths . Not 100% sure, though. These clarifications are not intended to encourage or to discourage the participation in this Group Buy. They are intended for potential participants to fully consider their needs and to ask IK relevant questions so they can be informed consumers. **For an analysis of some miscommunication, see

I have test driven a number of my plug-ins (Soft Synths and FX) using VMs Mini Plug-in Host and Plug-in Host modules. Virtual modulars are not for everyone, but it matches my personal workflow preferences. Some plug-in makers expose more parameters than other. Useful to me for automating the parameters by patching in CVs. I prefer it it to Cakewalk's methods. For me its rewarding that within Cakewalk, Voltage Modular can host all sorts of plug-ins. Not really cheating, just different workflows. Seeing cables helps me know what's going on. "Intuitive" for me having worked with a Moog in college. Not all plug-ins work within VM. Most of mine do, but I have some that don't.

Thanks for the details. I downloaded a few of them (just to see what the deal was) and put then them into Voltage Modular as a quick host to take a look/listen. They worked and while the LABs UI is super minimal (so far as I saw), a bunch of parameters show up as controllable though VM's I/O Plug-in Host. The idea of doing something minimal with Glass's Piano appeals to me!!

I am new to this series. Once I downloaded and installed the free app, I only saw "FREE" in the artwork on nine of the 47 instruments. Are all 47 free? Glass's Piano didn't say "Free" but clearly the video from two months ago says "Free." Hmmmm.

Why not just customize you favorite workspaces to exclude the Help Module View?

Interesting. When I say "I do not use screensets," I mean that I do not use the screensets module to save, restore, switch, etc. as part of my workflow. But I think I understand what you are saying here. Even if I don't do anything like that as part of my workflow, correct me if I am wrong: there is still a screenset (can we say "current screenset?") that is being managed by Cakewalk as you have described. Assuming I understand that correctly, what happens with Workspaces that exclude screenset functionality? My understanding is that the module and shortcuts are not available when using such workspaces, but when a project is saved after the GUI has been changed, does the "current screenset" get saved? Just wondering out loud here based on the the above. I suppose I could do some case testing to figure it out, but if you know it would save some time trying to answer the question. Depending on what Cakewalk does, I am now thinking there might be some advantages to my workflows to include screenset functionality. Thanks for the insights!

If it turns out to be an error message given by Cakewalk, it would be helpful to have a screen shot of the error message dialog box. However, from what you wrote, I see nothing you have said to indicate its a Cakewalk issue.

Yeah--its nice that we can look at our attachments chronologically and trash them as needed (or rather as no-longer-needed! ? ) to make space . As a habit, I generally (1) save the soon-to-be-deleted attachment to my PC and (2) edit the text to reflect the deleted image, so other users know it was deleted intentionally [e.g., out of date image removed; feature changed, or something like that].

Yup--sounds like a Windows system notification. If you had a Windows update recently, maybe the setting that tells Windows not to use any system notifications (audio) got reset to what Microsoft thinks should be the default for everyone? They do that kind of thing, as I am sure you know.

Thursday I plugged in a mic to try MTuner. I am not a singer/vocalist, so my pitches were all over the place. MTuner was very clear about that!!! ? I put further exploration on the back burner. The recent discussion reminded me of something I tried a while ago--trying to reproduce with my mouth frequency-stable sinusoidal waves in a software oscilloscope. So now I am wondering what can be done in real time with vocals to make it easier for the pitch to midi conversion to be as accurate as possible with MTuner, possibly isolating the fundamental / filtering overtones (like I did I by shaping my mouth and vocal cavity but with plug-ins), etc. Just throwing this out there because others seem to be interested as am I. If you start a new thread, I could move my comments, but I think the discussion is a logical continuation of Milton's post--from (1) the mechanics of how to set up the routing to get Audio -> MTuner -> midi -> synth working to (2a) how to process the audio going into MTuner and (2b) how to make use of MTuner's settings and possibly (3) how to make use of other MPlugins in the chain to get desired converted midi effects.