Cannot shorten length of song after deleting everything at the end

[Sven]

I wrote about this problem a few years ago and still haven't found a solution.  I have a 6 minute song but had another 5 minutes or so of extra ideas left at the end.  Now that I'm finished I want to delete every thing from after 6 minutes and have Ctrl-End stop at 6 minutes.  This will makes saves and loads quicker.

I had to freeze many tracks because I'm working on a slower machine.  That appeared to create volume automation out to 11 minutes which I thought I could remove and then shorten the song.  I went to 6 minutes and highlighted the entire end of the song and tried DELETE SPECIAL with all option on including  the delete hole option.  That appeared to get rid of the audio tracks but must be leaving something else.   I still saw some nodes. 

I checked the bus tracks and there's nothing there.  One thing to note is that on  DELETE SPECIAL the delete clip automation option under delete events in tracks is grayed out,  if that matters.   I was able to highlight the unneeded end section again and right click and then edit/delete which seemed to remove the automation notes.   Not sure why.

In spite of all this including attempts to ERASE (F-10) the extra end sections Ctrl-End still stops at 11 minutes.  Is there something I'm missing that will totally wipe out the last 5 minutes from the project and have Ctrl-End stop at 6 minutes where I would like it to?  I think someone mentioned that having a End Project Marker or something like that would be a good idea.

Thanks.

[Bristol_Jonesey]

Ripple Edit should do it.

[Sven]

I've tried this exercise with and without ripple edit.  No success yet unless I'm doing something wrong.  

I'll try that again and report back.  

Thanks.

[Keni]

I just ran into this?

 

Seems EA related as I do this often and this is the first time it's not performing as expected...

 

I have a few virtual instruments and one audio track.

I have selected the copy all track envelopes with clips

When I drag a group of clips, the envelopes are not being moved with them?

I will explore more...

 

[Keni]

once again, the PRV Assigned Note names are not sticking. I must reset them every time I open the PRV

 

This was somewhat recently fixed... Reversion?

 

[Bristol_Jonesey]

1 hour ago, Keni said:

I just ran into this?

 

Seems EA related as I do this often and this is the first time it's not performing as expected...

 

I have a few virtual instruments and one audio track.

I have selected the copy all track envelopes with clips

When I drag a group of clips, the envelopes are not being moved with them?

I will explore more...

 

Have you got this checked under Options

 

[Keni]

25 minutes ago, Bristol_Jonesey said:

Have you got this checked under Options

 

Thanks... Yes... I mentioned so... This made my morning session painful. I had to manually re-build a number of envelopes repeatedly as my arrangement was changing...

 

[Keni]

A few things have come to mind.

The envelopes not getting copied are on the audio track of a VST instrument. Until it is frown, there are no clipcs on it. The clips being copied are on the associated MIDI track. One envelope is a volume envelope so it's obvious to be on the audio track, but the other is an instrument specific envelope (leslie speed on b3). I cannot get it to record it on the MIDI track and must record it on the audio track...

Difficult situation. Especially thinking I now may have to r-do all those changes yet again if I'm not happy with the new arrangement...

<sigh>...

[Bristol_Jonesey]

1 hour ago, Keni said:

A few things have come to mind.

The envelopes not getting copied are on the audio track of a VST instrument. Until it is frown, there are no clipcs on it. The clips being copied are on the associated MIDI track. One envelope is a volume envelope so it's obvious to be on the audio track, but the other is an instrument specific envelope (leslie speed on b3). I cannot get it to record it on the MIDI track and must record it on the audio track...

Difficult situation. Especially thinking I now may have to r-do all those changes yet again if I'm not happy with the new arrangement...

<sigh>...

Keni, what happens if you first freeze the vst, then move the generated clip(s) and then unfreeze?

My only concern would be if unfreezing the vst causes the midi to return to its original time

[Keni]

24 minutes ago, Bristol_Jonesey said:

Keni, what happens if you first freeze the vst, then move the generated clip(s) and then unfreeze?

My only concern would be if unfreezing the vst causes the midi to return to its original time

Thanks Jonesey...

 

I thought of that too as a workaround, but I felt so sure this used to work.

I haven’t tried it but even that gets complicated if I must repeatedly freeze/un as I shuffle things around. 

 

I'm having a bit of a bewildering day myself...

[Keni]

1 hour ago, Bristol_Jonesey said:

Keni, what happens if you first freeze the vst, then move the generated clip(s) and then unfreeze?

My only concern would be if unfreezing the vst causes the midi to return to its original time

First, let me apologize for de-railing this thread. It was unintentional. I thought I was posting in the EA forum. I have no idea what moved me here? Either I did somethng weird or maybe a forum manager?

 

OK... I tried it out of curiosity and as we suspected, it works as expected. Missed a node but that may have been my quickie edit... If I unfreeze, the MIDI is unchanged from it's pre-frozen stuff... So it is that the envelopes are not relating to the midi clips on the related MIDI feed.. I don't remember this dilemma before.

 

OK... I did just find where I can do the MIDI controller on the midi track as I would any other controller (assigned to mod wheel) and I expect moving/copying would work fine there as it becomes part of the clip.

The problem exists when assigning midi controllers to envelopes as the envelopes don't record from my kybd's controller there. It does on the audio track.

I also just tested that Other than recording the midi event from my keyboard as midi events, I can manually create a proper envelope on the midi track.

 

So it comes down to I can record the performance action only as midi events.

I can manually create/edit the envelope on that track but it will not record as an envelope.

 

I can easily adjust to using the midi events for the mod wheel so I can record it on the midi track but it still leaves the problem of the volume envelope on the related audio track. There is no such creature on the midi track, so how to get the envelopes on the audio track to realize that they are connected to the clips on the related midi track? This one's difficult. It means I must manually repeat every edit manually. When the track is frozen they must already be in place and I freeze after a track is complete. So how to get those volume changes to know they are related to the midi clips on the associated track is the problem...

 

[msmcleod]

There's a reason why, within Insert Soft Synth Options,  "Display Automation On" defaults to "First MIDI Source Track" - it's so both your clips and envelopes can reside on this track and be selected together.

This would be my first recommendation.

The second would be to ensure you're using either Simple Instrument or Per-Output Instrument tracks.  That way, you also get the audio track's volume automation showing.

If you're using split instrument tracks, there are workarounds however:

1. If you want the audio track's volume automation to be selected along with the MIDI clip, the simplest way is to use CTRL + left click to also select the audio track.  If you're using Copy + Paste (as opposed to CTRL + drag), remember to give the correct track focus when pasting.

Alternatively,  select the MIDI & Audio track and temporarily "Make Instrument Track".  You can then do your operation, then split afterwards.

2. Within the Synth rack, the dropdown in the header allows you to change which track you want the automation for the selected synth to be shown on.  This can actually be ANY track you want (even unrelated ones), and you can change it as many times as you want.  So you can move your synth automation to the track who's clips your moving prior to doing your operation.

 

[Keni]

5 hours ago, msmcleod said:

There's a reason why, within Insert Soft Synth Options,  "Display Automation On" defaults to "First MIDI Source Track" - it's so both your clips and envelopes can reside on this track and be selected together.

This would be my first recommendation.

The second would be to ensure you're using either Simple Instrument or Per-Output Instrument tracks.  That way, you also get the audio track's volume automation showing.

If you're using split instrument tracks, there are workarounds however:

1. If you want the audio track's volume automation to be selected along with the MIDI clip, the simplest way is to use CTRL + left click to also select the audio track.  If you're using Copy + Paste (as opposed to CTRL + drag), remember to give the correct track focus when pasting.

Alternatively,  select the MIDI & Audio track and temporarily "Make Instrument Track".  You can then do your operation, then split afterwards.

2. Within the Synth rack, the dropdown in the header allows you to change which track you want the automation for the selected synth to be shown on.  This can actually be ANY track you want (even unrelated ones), and you can change it as many times as you want.  So you can move your synth automation to the track who's clips your moving prior to doing your operation.

 

Thanks Mark!

Much appreciated. I think I understand. I will experiment with this info and hopefully learn! 👍

[Keni]

7 hours ago, msmcleod said:

There's a reason why, within Insert Soft Synth Options,  "Display Automation On" defaults to "First MIDI Source Track" - it's so both your clips and envelopes can reside on this track and be selected together.

This would be my first recommendation.

The second would be to ensure you're using either Simple Instrument or Per-Output Instrument tracks.  That way, you also get the audio track's volume automation showing.

If you're using split instrument tracks, there are workarounds however:

1. If you want the audio track's volume automation to be selected along with the MIDI clip, the simplest way is to use CTRL + left click to also select the audio track.  If you're using Copy + Paste (as opposed to CTRL + drag), remember to give the correct track focus when pasting.

Alternatively,  select the MIDI & Audio track and temporarily "Make Instrument Track".  You can then do your operation, then split afterwards.

2. Within the Synth rack, the dropdown in the header allows you to change which track you want the automation for the selected synth to be shown on.  This can actually be ANY track you want (even unrelated ones), and you can change it as many times as you want.  So you can move your synth automation to the track who's clips your moving prior to doing your operation.

 

Ahhh...

 

Now I found my solution. My Thanks to you once again Mark!

 

My problem was that selecting both tracks (I had tried this previously) must be done after selecting the clip(s) to be moved/copied. Selecting the tracks first selects all clips on both tracks and trying to change that selection within the time frame causes only one track to remain selected. The obvious (though not to old man me) was to first select the clips, then add the additional track selection afterwards. Then it worked fine!

 

Whew!

 

Edit:

BTW... An oddity I've found.

 

If I select ALL tracks and execute a move, the envelopes do not move with the tracks. My workaround is to deselect the MIDI/Audio track(s) in question and move them in a separate operation. It seems that the track selection is not including the audio track automation envelopes. An easy workaround, but curious as to why this happens. It appears that the volume envelope on the audio track moves, but not the instrument-related midi controller envelope on that track.

 

Obviously I can work around these items, but I guess it's good to make common some of this into for others to find solutions.

If I move the instrument pair as a separate operation, both envelopes move together...

...a note though. After a successful move, there are remnants of some of the envelopes left behind. As there are no midi activities in those locations (in this instance) I can easily ignore them if I'm in a hurry but need to remember if more midi events are added in that location...

 

Edit 2:

 

And I am also finding that all envelopes are not responding correctly. When I move Farther awy into time(right) they move correctly leaving remnants. When I move earlier, they did not move all the way???

 

Edited September 12, 2023 by Keni

[Sven]

Back to my original problem...I changed several things whilst testing so I can't say for sure which one fixed it.  I added some Options that weren't selected.  I also tried Ripple Edit All again and finally seemed to be able to Delete Special the end of song residue.  

Thanks.

[Keni]

42 minutes ago, Sven said:

Back to my original problem...I changed several things whilst testing so I can't say for sure which one fixed it.  I added some Options that weren't selected.  I also tried Ripple Edit All again and finally seemed to be able to Delete Special the end of song residue.  

Thanks.

Sorry Sven...

I didn't post me here. I got moved!

 

[msmcleod]

4 hours ago, Keni said:

If I select ALL tracks and execute a move, the envelopes do not move with the tracks. My workaround is to deselect the MIDI/Audio track(s) in question and move them in a separate operation. It seems that the track selection is not including the audio track automation envelopes. An easy workaround, but curious as to why this happens. It appears that the volume envelope on the audio track moves, but not the instrument-related midi controller envelope on that track.

I suspect this is down to how you are selecting things.  Select All selects all tracks, which subtly different from selecting clips - and it's the clip selection that triggers selecting the associated track envelopes.  For some operations, there is a notion of "implied" selection, where tracks are selected because all their clips are (and vice-versa),  but not everything checks for this.

Also synth automation, although shown on the track, isn't actually "owned" by the track the envelope is shown on - instead it's owned by a hidden automation track ( this is also why changing the shown automation track is such a simple operation - it only affects display, not who owns it).  So this is why volume envelope is selected in this situation, but the synth envelopes aren't.

4 hours ago, Keni said:

And I am also finding that all envelopes are not responding correctly. When I move Farther awy into time(right) they move correctly leaving remnants. When I move earlier, they did not move all the way???

I'm not 100% sure what is going on here, but it could be that the misbehaving envelopes are absolute time based perhaps?

[Keni]

4 hours ago, msmcleod said:

I suspect this is down to how you are selecting things.  Select All selects all tracks, which subtly different from selecting clips - and it's the clip selection that triggers selecting the associated track envelopes.  For some operations, there is a notion of "implied" selection, where tracks are selected because all their clips are (and vice-versa),  but not everything checks for this.

Also synth automation, although shown on the track, isn't actually "owned" by the track the envelope is shown on - instead it's owned by a hidden automation track ( this is also why changing the shown automation track is such a simple operation - it only affects display, not who owns it).  So this is why volume envelope is selected in this situation, but the synth envelopes aren't.

I'm not 100% sure what is going on here, but it could be that the misbehaving envelopes are absolute time based perhaps?

Yeah, I get that... But that's why I was so confused by this. I have to select the clips on the midi track, but then select the audio TRACK so that it includes it. But I've got it working now...

 

As to the remnants? I'm thinking they are due to nodes that somehow didn't get tied to the clip. For example... Four nodes to make the movement, but the last two happen after the clip completes, so it doen't get associated?

 

[msmcleod]

1 minute ago, Keni said:

Yeah, I get that... But that's why I was so confused by this. I have to select the clips on the midi track, but then select the audio TRACK so that it includes it. But I've got it working now...

 

As to the remnants? I'm thinking they are due to nodes that somehow didn't get tied to the clip. For example... Four nodes to make the movement, but the last two happen after the clip completes, so it doen't get associated?

 

Ah yes, this makes sense - the selection has a time extent which in this case is dictated by the clip extent.  So it will only select nodes that are under the clips that are selected.

[Keni]

9 minutes ago, msmcleod said:

Ah yes, this makes sense - the selection has a time extent which in this case is dictated by the clip extent.  So it will only select nodes that are under the clips that are selected.

Hey! I guessed right for a change! 😉