Max Arwood Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 (edited) It seems like this note is being pushed back a bit on bounce. How is this even possible?? I moved this thing 2dz times trying to get the timing correct. I finally figured out it is moved back on freezing the track Edited August 25, 2023 by Max Arwood added Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larioso Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 I don't see any midi, is this freezing of an audio track with effects then, or? Any effects report wrong latency? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynn Wilson Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 Try quantizing the MIDI before freezing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bristol_Jonesey Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 At that level of resolution, it begs the question - is this anomaly even audible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Arwood Posted August 26, 2023 Author Share Posted August 26, 2023 It is quite audible. This note is an accent on the upbeat. When not timed properly, you can hear a rush or a drag on that note. I have moved it 20+ times, trying to guess where it would end up. It is a standard audio track. The latency is set to 2048. The project is running 45% computer usage on the cakewalk meter. The before is zoomed in so you can see that the now time is exactly on the mark. The bounced is zoomed out, so you can see it is behind the original placement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Arwood Posted August 26, 2023 Author Share Posted August 26, 2023 There are several plugins on the track FX. I will try to bounce with no effects, then 1/2ing them and bouncing again, etc. to see if I can find one that is misbehaving. Thanks larioso that could be it! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quick Math Posted August 26, 2023 Share Posted August 26, 2023 I had something similar when I bounced tracks with some plugin FX. It happened when oversampling option was on in Cakewalk. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Arwood Posted August 27, 2023 Author Share Posted August 27, 2023 I figured out it was plugins causing the problem. I’m still not sure why. I was unable to pin the problem on any single plug-in. Some plugins were set to over sample and some were not. Just for a test I turned over sampling on for all the plugins. My results were reverse from what I thought it would be. With over sampling turned on for the whole chain, the deviation was less. Go figure ?!?!?! Come to think about it ??? The error seemed to be 1/2 what it was before? Now I’m really confused. 🤔 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larioso Posted August 27, 2023 Share Posted August 27, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, Max Arwood said: With over sampling turned on for the whole chain, the deviation was less. Go figure ?!?!?! Come to think about it ??? The error seemed to be 1/2 what it was before? Now I’m really confused. 🤔 It kind of makes sense to me. - you might have found a bug though, that upsampling does not compensate right Lets say a plugin report 100 samples delay for samples to pass through - this on lets say 48k project If this is upsampled to 96k and still is calculated as 100 samples it will be half the time it pass through the plugin. - it should maybe be handled as 50 samples realtime delay, or the plugin has a reported higher delay that host does not use properly Something like that, but could be wrong since I don't know exactly how this is handled - does every sample passed to plugin from host generate one extra sample - then also has to be downsampled again before next plugin or track out - then plugin chain is fed next sample on project 48k - probably done by buffer size though, or by sample, don't know for sure It could be a bug as Quick Math discovered already before, compensation is not handled correctly when upsampling. - when you do synths upsampled it's different since no audio input normally - looking at Waves plugins they specify what latency is at each sample rate https://www.waves.com/bundles/gold#tab-tech-specs|tab-latency Most plugins report double latency at higher sample rate as you can see - is Cakewalk/Sonar handle this wrong when handling upsampled plugins? - or is some plugins used not supporting this higher sample rate and doing it wrong? When I bought the Waves Gold bundle 10 years ago, it was still 3 plugins that did not support 96k and it was fixed next year after I bought them. So maybe we just assume all plugins support higher sample rates. Edited August 27, 2023 by Larioso 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larioso Posted August 27, 2023 Share Posted August 27, 2023 How I wish new Sonar would get the feature that Protools had forever to show latency and compensation used for each channel in mixer as a module. - image below We have no clue where pdc is at or latency used for each track etc. - and PT you can also alter what to be used as User input I had a feature request for that in the old Gibson/Sonar days. It's different freezing a single track how calculations are made, but just good info to know where track is at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larioso Posted August 27, 2023 Share Posted August 27, 2023 On 8/26/2023 at 4:59 AM, Quick Math said: I had something similar when I bounced tracks with some plugin FX. It happened when oversampling option was on in Cakewalk. Did you report this to Cakewalk and got confirmation, or? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Arwood Posted August 28, 2023 Author Share Posted August 28, 2023 Not yet I already have two other reports I an trying to keep up with. I’ll stRt it as soon as one of the others closes or if I have a breakthrough o something about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Kelley Posted August 30, 2023 Share Posted August 30, 2023 I’ve seen this happen too. I believe I posted in another thread. Freezing the track caused it to shift in time enough that it was flat out of time with the music. Unfreeze and it moved back. Back and forth. I never figured out why but closing the project and reopening it seemed to fix it. In my case over sampling, FX on/off, or VST didn’t appear to matter. It’s rare but I still see it. I also made sure it wasn’t related to my tendency to accidental move the clip when I go to open the clip properties window. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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