How to automate volume but still use the track volume slider?

[T Boog]

Hi guys. I know there's a way to use volume automation yet still use the track slider to control the tracks overall volume. Someone showed how to do it in a video months ago but I can't rem how. Thanks a lot!

[Xoo]

Search for Offset Mode.

[John Vere]

Or use the gain 

[scook]

Offset Mode

Sometimes having an extra volume envelope is handy, an empty FX Chain is one way, I like Blue Cat's free gain suite.

[rfssongs]

If it's midi data you can use CC 11 as well.

[T Boog]

15 minutes ago, scook said:

Offset Mode

Sometimes having an extra volume envelope is handy, an empty FX Chain is one way, I like the Blue Cat's free gain suite.

Thanks Scook. I only had a few mins to try the offset mode but I was sad to see it affected all the tracks and zeroed out the pan knobs visually. I thought there would be a simple toggle per track(like a pre/post kinda thing) that allows u to adjust an individual track slider independent of it's volume automation.

Although I don't fully grasp the envelope/offset thing yet, it seems to be kinda all or nothing. The gain vst is a great idea but I can't imagine having to add it on every track I automate volume on. 

John suggest using the gain knob but I find that changes the quality of the tone too much.

I guess I'll spend some time in offset mode and see how it works out. I'm just hoping it doesn't cause more mishaps for a noob like me. (I'm still traumatized from the Ripple All setting 😫)

[scook]

Offset mode like ripple edit is one of those things enabled for a specific task and disabled ASAP. 

Leaving offset mode or ripple edit enabled is a highway to project hell.

[Herky Acuff]

Or send the track to a bus, do the volume there.

[T Boog]

8 hours ago, scook said:

Leaving offset mode or ripple edit enabled is a highway to project hell.

That's great to know. Yeah, it seemed like a tool that could hurt me as much as help me. Cheers bud!

[T Boog]

7 hours ago, Herky Acuff said:

Or send the track to a bus, do the volume there.

Thanks Herky. That may be the route I'll have to go. It just seems crazy that if u want to automate volume on 20 tracks that u need to create 20 buses to quickly adjust volume during mixing. I'm no wiz but this seems like a design oversight. I can't be the first person to encounter this conundrum. 

I'm seriously considering buying Bandlab and firing the whole staff out of spite. 😠

[Xoo]

Suggestion: *Leave* it in Offset mode.  The track sliders are then always providing a base level/offset and you never have to worry about which mode you're in.

If you have an envelope, then you have automation - the envelope mode is pretty much unnecessary*

Much simpler and I guarantee you'll be less confused in the long run.

* There's one case where you need to switch to envelope mode and back again.  If you have an envelope and delete it, the "envelope mode" slider remains at the level of the envelope at the point in time you deleted it, so switch, double click on the slider to zero it, then back to offset mode again.

[T Boog]

12 minutes ago, Xoo said:

Suggestion: *Leave* it in Offset mode.  The track sliders are then always providing a base level/offset and you never have to worry about which mode you're in.

Thanks Xoo. I'm very tempted to do that but from what I've read online they say it's easy to make accidental changes when in offset mode.

 If I do leave it in offset mode, what things should I watch out for to prevent accidental changes? IOWs, what are some common boo-boos that happen in offset mode? (I'm sure u guys have been bit by it a time or two)

[Xoo]

Pretty much the same as when using envelope mode - you can always make an inadvertent change.  I think  the best approach - however you want to work - is to stick in one mode and not jump between them.  I just think it's safer and easier to stick in Offset: an envelope is a visual representation of the slider envelope mode value, so you have that in plain sight, whereas you don't have visibility of the offset if you live in envelope mode.

[T Boog]

1 hour ago, Xoo said:

I just think it's safer and easier to stick in Offset

Thanks bud. Im gonna try sticking to offset mode and see how it works for me. I have to know.

But since my current project is set up in envelope mode, should I zero out my pan knobs in envelope mode before switching to offset? (I'm confused on how panning is affected between the two modes) And is there anything else I should set up in envelope mode first to avoid discrepancies or redundancy issues between the two modes? Thanks

[Xoo]

I'd leave what you're working on as is for now.

[John Vere]

Using the gain doesn’t change tone. That is your ears lying to you. It is common knowledge that level has an effect on how we listen.  A lot of snake oil plug ins make you think that they instantly make a track sound better but it’s just louder. 
Possibly understanding what you are trying to achieve would help offering a workflow that would help you better. 
Cakewalk has many options you can use to control the level of tracks. 
I actually rarely end up needing volume automation. I mostly use clip gain. 
I will also use tools such as Process Gain, Compression, Limiters and EQ. I try and leave all my faders at unity.  I use the gain to set a target peak level for each track.
I will use clip gain envelope for solos or brief changes. With clip gain I can simply highlight the section at drag the whole part up or down while observing the level read out showing at the pointer. 
As said there are dozens and dozens of workflows available and as you are finding out what works for one person doesn’t always work for you. 
Example almost all compressors, limiters and EQ,s have a input and output level control you can also automate. I have never needed this but it yet one more option. 

[Larioso]

5 hours ago, JohnnyV said:

Using the gain doesn’t change tone. 

Since it decides level hitting first plugin it may very well do so.

- a compressor for one thing is affected a lot

- many hardware emulating ones does not like 0 dBFs at all, and you have to turn gain down a bit

[Xoo]

1 hour ago, Larioso said:

Since it decides level hitting first plugin it may very well do so.

- a compressor for one thing is affected a lot

- many hardware emulating ones does not like 0 dBFs at all, and you have to turn gain down a bit

And amp sims for sure too.

[JnTuneTech]

15 hours ago, T Boog said:

Thanks Xoo. I'm very tempted to do that but from what I've read online they say it's easy to make accidental changes when in offset mode.

 If I do leave it in offset mode, what things should I watch out for to prevent accidental changes? IOWs, what are some common boo-boos that happen in offset mode? (I'm sure u guys have been bit by it a time or two)

FWIW - I found that using Offset Mode worked for me - if I also saved a project backup before engaging it. -I know that can be confusing, and more work, but as others have mentioned, it seems to be best using a project in one mode or the other - not switching back & forth. -I think "accidental changes" are meant to refer to the odd caveats that happen when switching back to non-offset mode and assuming that your project will still have the same mix. There's even a warning in the documentation regarding offset mode.

I had several mixes, years ago, during which I accidentally pressed a keyswitch that turned offset mode on - before I even knew what it was - and then saved the project. After that point, I couldn't ever get back my original non-offset mode mix from those projects.  -It seems to me like maybe it's intended to use either for temporary playback - comparisons, and bypassing envelopes in live mixing, etc., or for those who wish to use it full time, -and don't get me wrong - it does have good uses. -But be careful, -back up your mix(es) - once you start playing with it, for sure.

[T Boog]

20 hours ago, JohnnyV said:

Using the gain doesn’t change tone. That is your ears lying to you. It is common knowledge that level has an effect on how we listen.  A lot of snake oil plug ins make you think that they instantly make a track sound better but it’s just louder. 
Possibly understanding what you are trying to achieve would help offering a workflow that would help you better. 
Cakewalk has many options you can use to control the level of tracks. 
I actually rarely end up needing volume automation. I mostly use clip gain. 
I will also use tools such as Process Gain, Compression, Limiters and EQ. I try and leave all my faders at unity.  I use the gain to set a target peak level for each track.
I will use clip gain envelope for solos or brief changes. With clip gain I can simply highlight the section at drag the whole part up or down while observing the level read out showing at the pointer. 
As said there are dozens and dozens of workflows available and as you are finding out what works for one person doesn’t always work for you. 
Example almost all compressors, limiters and EQ,s have a input and output level control you can also automate. I have never needed this but it yet one more option. 

Thanks a lot John. Btw, do u rem this post from a few months ago?

I finally found my problem....

Offset Mode!

I must've accidentally toggled it on the project many months ago and had that master turned low. Like JnJuneTech, I didn't even know what offset mode was. Now that I've turned it back on and turned up that master, all my volume is back. It's loud as heck. Praise God!  🙏

 

Man I had no idea there was an invisible master gain stage between the normal master & output.

 Oh well, at least now I know one of the "boo-boos" to watch out for.  Ouch!!! 😖