[Expired]Cinesamples Indsutry Brass €49

[antler]

3 hours ago, PavlovsCat said:

Maybe I didn't highlight it, but I wrote that the reality is, when a KONTAKT sample developer takes the leap to make their own sampler or player, if it takes off, there's no question that they're going to reassess their relationship with KONTAKT/NI and it makes a lot of sense.

Orchestral Tools' SINE Player and Spitfire Audio also come to mind.

[pseudopop]

27 minutes ago, PavlovsCat said:

No disagreement, I thought you were saying that Cinesamples strategy might have changed and  I was just trying to explain why that might happen and why it's natural,  and even smart, for that to happen (because the business learns as they roll out this new line). And yeah, I forget that this is just a deals section and not a site on strategy! I was just geeking out to be really  candid. 

Also, re-reading my post, I'm guessing you might have inferred something I didn't intend. I wasn't correcting you. I was just agreeing with you, but my phrasing was clumsy enough that it could have been misinterpreted as if I was correcting you, I wasn't. You could modify the first sentence to start,

"I absolutely agree that Cinesamples may be doing something today that is different than when they first created their plan, as they should be learning as they go and making adjustments. I can easily see how they could end up completely replacing KONTAKT with Musio in the future and making tiers for their libraries:  a basic level with basic features and lighter weight libraries and an advanced/pro level with every feature presently contained in the KONTAKT libraries. " 

Alright, thank you for clearing that up. I sometimes try to read between the lines but I'm dyslexic when it comes to that.  

I have no idea what Cinesamples strategy is and I suppose that is why Musio confuses me so much. The quotes I shared were in essence the only things I found that pointed at something, but they seemed to point at opposite directions. Perhaps that is indeed because Cinesamples themselves have been figuring things out and learning along the way, like you said.

[PavlovsCat]

1 hour ago, antler said:

Orchestral Tools' SINE Player and Spitfire Audio also come to mind.

Absolutely and you can bet that those companies' development and level of success for their own sample players impacts how they look at their relationship with NI/KONTAKT.  I was focusing in on Cinesamples and 8Dio because those two companies share that they're both long time KONTAKT developers -- which can be said about Orchestra Tools and Spitfire -- and they've both been doing some pretty significant deep discounted that has a lot of developers talking and some concerned about how pricing is changing in the orchestral library space. I think 2023 has been a big year in that regard, pricing.  It's very much like when Waves first begin lowering the prices of their effects to the present day always on $29/$39 USD PLUS these developers are really investing in their proprietary players. 

And yes, I'll share this in advance, I am booked to provide strategy advice to a developer, so I'm in the midst of researching and analyzing the marketplace and the various players. But as a marketing/branding strategist and as a hobbyist musician, I find what's going on right now really exciting and it's also why there is a very public freakout happening that can be heard loudly at this point from a certain developer / forum owner. I've been a huge KONTAKT user for 20 or whatever it's been years, I've given advice to more than 2 dozen KONTAKT developers over the years and I can see that a good deal of KONTAKT developers with large portfolios of libraries that have released their own samplers or players. Cinesamples, Orchestra Tools and Spitfire have all gone the closed route (regarding third-party libraries), but I know that Mike at Cinesamples had explored going the open route, 8Dio/SoundPaint has gone the open route (open to both third party developers and you can actually import and create your own sample libraries in the free player). The trend towards developers (1) lowering prices and (2) introducing samplers/players, have in common, of course, that they're replacing KONTAKT, reflects a maturity of the market that has pricing implications and big implications for NI. A big part of why developers are making these moves is that it's dangerous for their businesses to be tied so closely to the fate and direction of NI/KONTAKT. plus the changing of hands of companies like NI Personally, I'd like to see all of these companies prosper with what they're doing. It's great for sample users because it's great for the market. 2023 also represented the year where NI's own deep discounting hit new levels (+70%).  As a strategist, I would never advise a company to discount at that level, because it becomes the perceived value of your product after that point.  That is, If your product lists at $100 USD and you discount at 70% so that it's on sale for $30, you've just trained the market that the real value is $30 and a great deal of the market will now wait until the product hits that price again. So, if you see any developer I've advised doing deep discounting like that, you know it wasn't following my advice. The only time I've advise that is if the brand is planning on soon re-adjusting pricing to that $30 regular price point. And I do think that is what the meta message of NI doing that deep discounting is. Prices are adjusting downward.  

Edited November 13, 2023 by PavlovsCat

[PavlovsCat]

32 minutes ago, pseudopop said:

Alright, thank you for clearing that up. I sometimes try to read between the lines but I'm dyslexic when it comes to that.  

I have no idea what Cinesamples strategy is and I suppose that is why Musio confuses me so much. The quotes I shared were in essence the only things I found that pointed at something, but they seemed to point at opposite directions. Perhaps that is indeed because Cinesamples themselves have been figuring things out and learning along the way, like you said.

Precisely! Just consider how much they've learned since planning this out. They started by exploring making their player open to third party developers, but decided to keep it closed. It wouldn't shock me if they're really successful that they may open it up to third-party developers. They originally saw it as an entry into their sample libraries where they upsell to KONTAKT, but what if this thing goes gangbusters and they re-assess that maybe they should bring all of the features into Musio with some premium/pro level tier that doesn't exist today. Okay, yeah, strategy is my living, so I'm sure there's a bunch of people annoyed with my posts. I'll stop here and that will probably get someone chiming in to say, "Thank you!" But I love this forum for how we're a small group and have kind of learned each other's quirks and take stuff off topic in our own ways. 

Edited November 13, 2023 by PavlovsCat

[antler]

25 minutes ago, PavlovsCat said:

That is, If your product lists at $100 USD and you discount at 70% so that it's on sale for $30, you've just trained the market that the real value is $30 and a great deal of the market will now wait until the product hits that price again.

I think I've only seen one reverse of that trend: Toontrack drum libraries used to be so much cheaper than they are today. As with anything, you win some, you lose some; it all averages out over time.

[antler]

16 minutes ago, PavlovsCat said:

They originally saw it as an entry into their sample libraries where they upsell to KONTAKT, but what if this thing goes gangbusters and they re-assess that maybe they should bring all of the features into Musio with some premium/pro level tier that doesn't exist today.

Potentially it's a case of not overpromising. It's a new player and they're still building it - they've only added keyswitching (I think), and I seem to remember some talk of different mics in the works (don't quote me on that though).

I hope it goes well for them too. They make some great libraries. And if the aforementioned companies and others like EastWest can do it, there's scope for Musio to work out too.

Edited November 13, 2023 by antler

[PavlovsCat]

15 hours ago, antler said:

I think I've only seen one reverse of that trend: Toontrack drum libraries used to be so much cheaper than they are today. As with anything, you win some, you lose some; it all averages out over time.

Interesting point. Toontrack is an excellent example of how a very strong brand in a niche can have pricing that can withstand these market changes, for now. SD3 is my favorite drum plugin and Toontrack makes my favorite acoustic drum libraries, but I would love to see their competitors step it up and bring down pricing to the point Toontrack feels they must lower their prices too. So go XLN!  Go BFD! If those developers provide serious competition at a lower price point,  Toontrack will likely see their market share decline,  their sales decline and end up lowering their prices. 

Now that there are some of us into strategy and analyzing the market, you can now appreciate why some sample library developers are upset and worried about the disruptive changes in pricing led by NI,  Cinesamples, 8Dio and others. That is the foundation of the below attack. Read this except and think about that: 

"[8Dio's]"race to bottom" pricing strategy is bad for the industry. It makes things difficult for those of us who are trying to invest in producing quality products and need to price them accordingly. In my own case, I'm over $160k in recording costs alone for our upcoming choir library. $160k. And that's before editing or advertising or licenses or paying myself for my time. Yet I guarantee someone will post on my Facebook ad that it's overpriced, because they got Requiem Pro for 35 bucks. Guaranteed. In fact, I got one of those yesterday on my Nightfall ad, as someone said it should be $39, because that's what Product X is.

It's not healthy for the industry, and from what I've heard, Troels and Tawnia don't give a flying f*ck. (Before they sic Amanda on me again, they're welcome to correct anything I'm saying. I won't delete anything they post.) They've got a large catalog they can keep drawing from, so it will be a while before that well runs dry.

I might add that a year and a half ago, Tawnia told us (here) that 8dio wouldn't be doing sales like this anymore. But ... did anyone really believe her? I didn't, which is why I bookmarked the post.

So yes, I get really pissed off seeing that 8dio Flash Sale thread day after day, bumped to page one of Latest Posts, cycling blowouts on the same damn products (you know they're being repeated, right?) with the same damn discussions, over and over and over. Making a mockery of the companies I do respect.

F*ck that. "

 

This developer is having a meltdown over major price reductions in the industry; he's furious at a competitor for what he believes is their leading the present price reductions in his industry because it means he's going to no longer get the same big profit margins he's historically enjoyed and will need to increase sales volume and is worrying if he's going to be able to get to that volume of sales.

Of course,  I have empathy for that situation. I've faced similar challenges as a marketing  exec and in running the company I lead today. But this is the nature of business and you must adapt to succeed. You don't seek to destroy your competitors through contrived,  defamatory reputation attacks.  But that is precisely what's going on in this small industry today.  You may not have realized it, but that is what you've been witnessing. 

Edited November 14, 2023 by PavlovsCat

[Kirean]

So I got a confirmation about the Tina Guo situation and supposedly the Complete Bundle is indeed complete as was already assumed.

Another question.

On the video for Volume 2 around the 5 minute mark, the cello seems to stutter awfully. Is this a feature or just a random hiccup on the Youtuber's part?

 

[kitekrazy]

On 11/13/2023 at 2:50 PM, antler said:

I think I've only seen one reverse of that trend: Toontrack drum libraries used to be so much cheaper than they are today. As with anything, you win some, you lose some; it all averages out over time.

I don't buy Toontrack anymore since libraries are based on genres and that gets expensive and used more disk space.   I have these drum libraries in Konmplete and Modo Drum. I might as well use them.  

 As for their other EZ line stuff they did a great job with their players to lay down stuff.