is there a Tutorial on using PLUGINS on vocal recording track INPUT?

[Pathfinder]

Hope the title makes sense. I have never tried using plugs (like compression\EQ etc on the way IN of the vocal recording. Just old habits, not good habits. Always recorded clean and then added FX etc later.
I imagine outboard compressor etc would be best but I have to use what I have=zillions o plugins Mostly waves and Izotope. Now vocals always come out OK after processing but I know they could be much better. Vocal mic options I have are CM5 large Dia Condenser mic, Shure SM58beta and a few lesser ones.

IAH, I want to leave a nice recorded cd for my family and friends. Better late than never. I was always too busy (my excuse for not learning more over 30 years with CW) playing out in bands etc.
EDIT: I use midi and VSTS for Drums, Keys and bass-THey always sound fine. My guitar also sounds fine. My recorded vocals are, well-HELP!

Thanks

Edited October 1, 2023 by Pathfinder

[57Gregy]

Well, the effects will not be recorded even if you use them while recording. They are applied to the output. And you would need a fast computer in order to hear the effect without latency.
There are ways, of course. Recording the output to another track while recording, if forget what they call it, a semi-new feature.

[Byron Dickens]

Throwing a bunch of effects on something that doesn't sound good in the first place ain't gonna make it better.

[Pathfinder]

10 minutes ago, Byron Dickens said:

Throwing a bunch of effects on something that doesn't sound good in the first place ain't gonna make it better.

I never said they sound BAD and I certainly know you cannot fix garbage. I am not talking about garbage. Just BETTER than they are. I just have been researching quite a bit about vocals. I mean just putting the Waves CLA Vocals plug with some adjustments in the vocal FX bus makes a world of difference.

Thing is I keep reading about (yes OUTBOARD FX) putting a compressor, for instance on the vocals on the way in.

sorry I cannot explain things in super record nerd terms, I am trying, I am a guitar player first. Yes, had CW since the 90's. But just used it in the simplest ways since the bass, drums and keys VSTs always sound the way I want and so does my recorded electric and acoustic guitar parts.

Hope that explains it a bit more clearly. Just lookin for help, is all. I'll put in the work but I need to read it and\or watch and listen to tutorials-for me anyway!

Edited October 1, 2023 by Pathfinder

[Will.]

32 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Hope the title makes sense. I have never tried using plugs (like compression\EQ etc on the way IN of the vocal recording. Just old habits, not good habits. Always recorded clean and then added FX etc later.
I imagine outboard compressor etc would be best but I have to use what I have=zillions o plugins Mostly waves and Izotope. Now vocals always come out OK after processing but I know they could be much better. Vocal mic options I have are CM5 large Dia Condenser mic, Shure SM58beta and a few lesser ones.

IAH, I want to leave a nice recorded cd for my family and friends. Better late than never. I was always too busy (my excuse for not learning more over 30 years with CW) playing out in bands etc.
EDIT: I use midi and VSTS for Drums, Keys and bass-THey always sound fine. My guitar also sounds fine. My recorded vocals are, well-HELP!

Thanks

Yep there is. I record my artists or snares with effect to tame the peaks. 

Step 1: Create your recording track. 

Step 2: Add your desired effects and tweak them to taste. 

Step 3: Add an extra Audio Track>Go to the newly created tracks Input and create a NEW PATCH POINT. 

Step 4: Go to your recorded track and sent that to the New Patch Point. 

Step: 5 Arm Patch track and start recording. 

[Byron Dickens]

16 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I never said they sound BAD and I certainly know you cannot fix garbage. I am not talking about garbage. Just BETTER than they are. I just have been researching quite a bit about vocals. I mean just putting the Waves CLA Vocals plug with some adjustments in the vocal FX bus makes a world of difference.

Thing is I keep reading about (yes OUTBOARD FX) putting a compressor, for instance on the vocals on the way in.

sorry I cannot explain things in super record nerd terms, I am trying, I am a guitar player first. Yes, had CW since the 90's. But just used it in the simplest ways since the bass, drums and keys VSTs always sound the way I want and so does my recorded electric and acoustic guitar parts.

Hope that explains it a bit more clearly. Just lookin for help, is all. I'll put in the work but I need to read it and\or watch and listen to tutorials-for me anyway!

I misunderstood what you were saying about your vocals needing help.

[Pathfinder]

9 minutes ago, Byron Dickens said:

I misunderstood what you were saying about your vocals needing help.

I know I tend to ramble and OVER explain the issue..  Never on purpose   🙂

Edited October 1, 2023 by Pathfinder

[Pathfinder]

19 minutes ago, Will. said:

Yep there is. I record my artists or snares with effect to tame the peaks. 

Step 1: Create your recording track. 

Step 2: Add your desired effects and tweak them to taste. 

Step 3: Add an extra Audio Track>Go to the newly created tracks Input and create a NEW PATCH POINT. 

Step 4: Go to your recorded track and sent that to the New Patch Point. 

Step: 5 Arm Patch track and start recording. 

Going go look at this right now- I never have. Perhaps after 30+ years I will actually start to learn to use CW a bit better-THAT is my goal here in my older years!

Thanks very Much

Edited October 1, 2023 by Pathfinder

[Glenn Stanton]

note: Will's technique of recording the input via the AUX track is how you print the effects on the WAV clip(s). otherwise, just having plugins on the input track does NOT print those effects. if you turn off the effects, you're simply left with the raw input. and which i recommend recording BOTH - so if you find the effect(s) printed on the aux track need to be adjusted, you have the source material to work with... much like re-amping - record your guitars both DI and post-amp / post-effects so you can redo the guitar amping and effects later.

[mettelus]

I would personally be hesitant to bake FX into the recorded audio (i.e., using a patch point), but some audio interfaces have FX built in and will allow you to pass those to the DAW (rather than the raw audio). I am working with someone on with their audio recording projects, so can pass on some quick advice from that.

Input side (very important to work this out before any FX parts):

1. A large diaphragm condenser will capture the most, but also has its own associated "clean up," but this can be done with a simple FX chain.
2. For a condenser, check rotation of the microphone with it armed (i.e., sound checking to see where the mic reacts best for your setup). For this application, a 60 degree rotation (yes, I said 60) mitigated a massive amount of sibilants, so the post-production became minimal.
3. Always do a sound check before starting (arm, input echo on, FX bin disabled). Using something with decent level plosives is a good routine, and those should just peak into the orange (will give the best signal-to-noise ratio for what is recorded without clipping). Once there is a good grasp of this for your situation, the post-production FX get lighter and lighter with experience.

FX side (FX bin):

1. This may or may not be feasible depending on latency, but if possible, you can turn on the FX bin while recording. This still records the raw audio to disk, but you will hear very close to a "final" render. By not baking in these FX, you can still tweak them in post-production. The FX "typically used" are:
2. Noise Gate: set below vocal level, fast attack, medium release. This is to catch the noise floor only.
3. EQ: HPF somewhere in the 100Hz range. This is to remove the low end before compression.
4. Compressors: 2 were used in this case because the plosives were so strong. First was set to catch plosives, high threshold (~15-20dB), 4:1 ratio, fast attack/release, and very little makeup gain (around 2-3dB). This was just to mitigate the plosive peaks. Second was for the core vocal, medium threshold (~25dB because the first raised the entire track), 2:1 ratio, fast attack, slower release, a bit more makeup for this one.
5. Another EQ to tailor the result, mostly used as a de-esser.

Setting the FX chain initially is best after recording a track, then you can tweak it better to a "very close" setting for your voice. Also be sure to save this as a track template as you build/refine it, then you can simply insert your template, sound check, and take off recording.

For the above situation, they do not have access to paid plugins, so I went with Sonitus Gate, TDR Nova, and TDR Kotelnikov. These are all free, but also light on the CPU hit, so "should" be able to be used while tracking. I would shy away from any of the CPU-hungry plugins available if you want to use them when tracking.

Edited October 1, 2023 by mettelus

[Pathfinder]

Wouldn't recording an ADDITIONAL vocal track and trying Wills suggestion still leave me with a dry vocal recording (no FX printed). This is  a question.

I us very few tracks since everything but My vocal and my guitar are live, everything else VSTs Only 3 of them)

Edited October 1, 2023 by Pathfinder

[mettelus]

You certainly could do that, sure, but if you are going to do any post-production, then the baked track is superfluous (you have to run the FX bin anyway to record the other track). There is nothing stopping you from running FX over and over on the same audio, when tracking, mixing, etc.

[Will.]

34 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Wouldn't recording an ADDITIONAL vocal track and trying Wills suggestion still leave me with a dry vocal recording (no FX printed). This is  a question.

I us very few tracks since everything but My vocal and my guitar are live, everything else VSTs Only 3 of them)

Yes it will. You will have both Dry and wet Vocals. Just make sure to Arm both. 

I normally dont need the Dry vocals when i do it. I tweak my effects while the artist do test runs. The  trick is to create extra headroom with the compressor while uou let autotune run in the background on the arm track. So what you get is a partially tamed vocal. The goal is to only tame the peaks of the singer. Ydont want to compress here. Just tame those harsh frequencies with a Deesser or EQ and tame the peaks with a vocal compressor. I normally target for anything between 0.0dB to -0.5dB gain reduction. 

Edited October 1, 2023 by Will.

[Pathfinder]

6 minutes ago, mettelus said:

You certainly could do that, sure, but if you are going to do any post-production, then the baked track is superfluous (you have to run the FX bin anyway to record the other track). There is nothing stopping you from running FX over and over on the same audio, when tracking, mixing, etc.

Getting confused now-maybe a better vocal mic-just kidding. I think. The CM5 was great in it's day. Made by Stellar I think and a great copy supposedly of a very famous vocal mic. Actually one of the OLDER forums (Glennbo and others is where I remember reading about this CM5 many years ago.

This is the mic, I bought it new when they came out:

Stellar CM5 Tube Condenser Microphone (C12/ELAM251 Inspired)

[Pathfinder]

4 minutes ago, Will. said:

Yes it will. You will have both Dry and wet Vocals. Just make sure to Arm both. 

I normally dont need the Dry vocals when i do it. I tweak my effects while the artist do test runs. The  trick is to create extra headroom with the compressor while uou let autotune run in the background on the arm track. 

Thanks. I am copying the thread comments into a word doc.  School is fun and needed  🙂 I don't use AutoTune. Not to sound like a jerk but I am a very good singer-. I am sure I waiver here and there, but I want that. weird I guess. Been the lead singe in every band, trio and duo I have been in and also about 30 years of solo, me and an acoustic.

Edited October 1, 2023 by Pathfinder

[Will.]

3 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Thanks. I am copying the thread comments into a word doc.  School is fun and needed  🙂 I don't use AutoTune. Not to sound like a jerk but I am a very good singer-. I am sure I waiver here and there, but I want that. weird I guess. Been the lead singe in every band, trio and duo I have been in and also about 30 years of solo, me and an acoustic.

All good. 🤣

Recopy my previous comment. I have edit and added some information to it. 

[Pathfinder]

The vocal, just an old ballad sounds so much better to me since this thread started. It's nice when you get what you wish for. Thanks so much folks. 
I have many plugins but, for waves CLA Vocals and a touch of Breverb 2 or reveberatex64 sound fine to me. I am using the Izoptope stuff for the "printed FX track.
This is a good Sunday. Of course I am not done learning and using what's in this thread alone.

Thanks again

[Will.]

3 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

The vocal, just an old ballad sounds so much better to me since this thread started. It's nice when you get what you wish for. Thanks so much folks. 
I have many plugins but, for waves CLA Vocals and a touch of Breverb 2 or reveberatex64 sound fine to me. I am using the Izoptope stuff for the "printed FX track.
This is a good Sunday. Of course I am not done learning and using what's in this thread alone.

Thanks again

😌 It will sound even better when you do the actual compression to it. 🙂 

[Pathfinder]

8 minutes ago, Will. said:

😌 It will sound even better when you do the actual compression to it. 🙂 

Yes that seems to be my weakest spot right now. Working on it!

[Pathfinder]

24 minutes ago, Will. said:

😌 It will sound even better when you do the actual compression to it. 🙂 

Ok dumb question-Do you mean on the way in or in he FX bin after? As far as sounding better. Feel like an idiot!