Timing sounds weird listening from a diff room

[T Boog]

Hi guys. When I'm seated in front of my monitors, my song's timing & groove sounds great but I notice when I listen from a diff room, the groove sounds off & kinda rushed. Does anyone else experience this?

Would it have something to do with diff frequencies reaching the ear at diff times(after bouncing thru the house)?

I know it's an unusual question. I couldn't really find anything online about this.  

My mind wants to believe that I'm getting a better, more objective perspective when listening from a diff room but, with what little I know about freqs, I'm thinking I shouldn't trust my ears when listening that way.  I think back to listening to bands play from outside the club. I seem to rem the groove sometimes sounding weird. 

So, is it just me guys or is this part of the wonderful world of random phase shifting? Please shed some light &/or personal experiences. This one's had me scratching my head for a long time. I'd love to put it to rest. Cheers!

 

[OutrageProductions]

This is totally the result of the acoustical response of the room/environment that you are listening in.
I've spent 30 years as an acoustical engineering consultant, and the only thing you can do is construction and treatment, which is not inexpensive.

Learn to listen to stuff that you know as a reference, then compare. You'll notice lots of things that are anomolies. Live with 'em.

Or build yourself a real, treated, monitoring environment.

[HOOK]

I've always found that taking a break and listening from the next room is important, even with a good mix environment.  The mix will always sound different from there and may clue you in on something obvious that you're totally missing.  Or, at least, show you something you might want to check on.  I find that listening from another room allows me to listen like a normal person again...lol.  Not so hyper-focused on any one thing in the mix.  More of a big picture thing.

But the groove and timing?  No way.  That doesn't change.  If the groove sounds off, the groove is off.

[Will.]

6 hours ago, Tarrell Freeze said:

Would it have something to do with diff frequencies reaching the ear at diff times(after bouncing thru the house)

Wow! You are experiencing the doppler effect in your house? Thats interesting. 

[David Baay]

2 hours ago, HOOK said:

But the groove and timing?  No way.  That doesn't change.  If the groove sounds off, the groove is off.

I would tend to agree with this. I could see losing context for counterpoint or swing due to attenuation of a some rhythmic element(s) at a distance changing your perception of 'groove' to some extent, but I can't say I've ever encountered something sounding really 'off' like that. But it might be more likely if you don't have strong enough dynamics in the rhythmic elements to really define the groove well at lows levels or in imperfect listening conditions.

Best thing would be to post it here or on the Songs forum to let us hear for ourselves.

[Bass Guitar]

Weird. As I type I'm playing music from a spare room up the hallway and sitting in the kitchen> The room is not treated , just a square box 11x11 with a bed and dresser.  The music sounds completely in time.  I will agree that possibly there is either something not normal about the acoustic situation or you need to see what is wrong with your mix. As said play a reference track and see if it goes south. 

One thing I do understand is that Bass travels a lot slower than high end content. I have a wireless for my bass and If I go out in the audience It doesn't take long for my timing to be off to the rest of the band. I always stand as close to the kick drum as I'm allowed. And that's why we also put the bass amp right next to the drummers stool. I played with a drummer who had a speaker in his throne. I think it was called a "Kick-*****"  

So you might be finding you have so low frequency issues in your mix. 

Edited September 5, 2023 by Bass Guitar

[OutrageProductions]

1 hour ago, Bass Guitar said:

One thing I do understand is that Bass travels a lot slower than high end content. I have a wireless for my bass and If I go out in the audience It doesn't take long for my timing to be off to the rest of the band.

This is incorrect. Let's dispell a few common misconceptions;

The velocity of a sound wave is 343 meters per second at sea level, regardless of frequency. Other environmental factors will affect it, like temperature, relative humidity, and barometric pressure.

However, what you experience as 'behind the groove', when at a distance from the source (drummer) is a time delay caused by the transmission line (air). Musicians that play with headphones or IEM's live, will play 'in the groove' at any distance relative to one who is listening to the direct and/or reflected source.

Fun fact: most audiologists and acousticians agree that approximately 33 milliseconds is the average human threshold for a discernable "first reflection", which is why, if your hardware & DAW are capable of running with a round-trip latency of less than that, you will be able to play relatively 'in time' with the groove when recording, especially if using headphones.

Relating to the OP post; loudspeaker directivity is narrower in higher frequencies than low frequencies, which means the lows have more opportunity to reflect the waveform off of surfaces during the transmission (out of the room and down the hallway, as it were) causing multiple delay effects and reflections to be perceived, leading to a 'smear' of the timing.

Edited September 5, 2023 by OutrageProductions

[T Boog]

Thanks for the feedback guys. Before I go on, let me just say that I've been playing music seriously for over 40 yrs. I consider myself to have good timing and have recorded many songs in the past. However, since I've started recording again, I think I may be experiencing some degree of what I've learned is called "temporal illusion"(esp when I listen too long without a break).

This is my first recording via DAW and the ability to nudge a note ever so slightly has created a sense of timing option anxiety and has me questioning my own sense of where the groove is. Esp since this song has a few tempo changes. (Fwiw, I did use a click where possible)

I heard Tom Scholz of Boston talk about working on some songs so long that he lost all perspective. He said he didn't even know what he was listening to anymore. He said only after a couple months break from hearing the track would he gain some true objectivity again.

I think it may be time for me to let a couple friends hear this song and get their feedback. I will say, this has been a humbling experience. It's amazing how one slight nudge(tick) of a snare hit will change the way the groove is perceived from that point on.

It starts feeling like my perception of where the  groove is riding is unreliable and changes on me.

So yeah guys, PLEASE tell me if u ever experience this phenomenon. I'd love to know that I'm not a freak. And if u have experienced this, what tips would u give to help me climb out of this OCD rabbit hole? I can't seem to stop fighting with the groove. Thanks a lot!

 

 

 

 

 

[mark skinner]

T , one thing that has helped me is flipping my master channel to mono. You can then easily hear and adjust the tracks that are too loud and possibly smearing the groove. After making adjustments the stereo mix normally sounds much better than it did. I usually make some small tweaks and then literally get away from the mix.  I mean getting out of my chair and the sweet spot about 12 feet . I do a critical listen and then move out into the hallway. Sometimes the mix works , sometimes it needs help.                      mark

Edited September 7, 2023 by mark skinner

[T Boog]

On 9/5/2023 at 10:07 AM, David Baay said:

Best thing would be to post it here or on the Songs forum to let us hear for ourselves

Thanks Dave. Although I'm not quite ready for that just yet, I def want u guys to hear it before I post it anywhere else. Not only am I looking forward to some experienced feedback but without all of ur help here on the Cakewalk forum, I'd have beat my computer with a baseeball bat a long time ago, Office Space style. Seriously, I'm SUPER thankful to u guys. 

Btw,  I wrote this song for my daughter about her best friend who died in a car wreck a year ago. So it's more than a song, it's a very special gift that I know will bring some comfort and healing to my daughter & that family. So yeah, I can't say it enough.. . Thanks so much for the help guys!!! 🙏

[David Baay]

Always glad to help. Sounds like a  worthy project.