Mod Wheel and Cakewalk

[Stuart Smith]

Hi All, 

I'm relatively new to  the new cakewalk having used SONAR Pro 8 since, well it was released. 

My question today is about  My  Launch key 25 and changing velocity's with the mod wheel. Latest Kontakt 

and any sound library it doesn't matter.

My issue us the mod wheel effects the velocity of the midi recorded in play back. EG i record say a violin part  

at 50 VEL, come back the next day and play it back to hear it with the mod wheel turned up to full, the piece recorded 

now plays at max velocity! i haven't seen any questions about this  after a few hours of searching, I'm sure its a user thing

but i don't know what to do. i only want my mod wheel to effect velocities when recording  multiple midi  tracks, that's all. 

second to this when ever i record a clip of midi with say a fade in  using the mod wheel the audio adapts  the fade ins for the latest take as well

so what would happen is 10 seconds  the main note(first clip) is at a set velocity, i start  2nd note with mod wheel  (2nd clip) sounds right when recording 

then on playback  the instrument is playing both fade in, so clip one is using clip 2s fade in too. i have sound on sound recording enabled too so i can clean up my playing on piano easier.  i feel i'm missing something really obvious but its doing my head in! 

 

help! 

thanks all! 

P

 

Edited November 29, 2021 by Stuart Smith

[John Vere]

Obviously in your controllers settings options the mod  wheel is assigned to velocity?  Never heard of that one Volume yes, velocity? No. 
Velocity is normally controlled with the keys. Be aware that velocity is not the same as volume.
Velocity changes the timber to reflect a soft or hard attack like how hard you blow, pluck or strike an instrument. 
For strings it’s often a combination of volume and velocity to get the correct swelling effects etc. 

This is why velocity is normally controlled with your keyboard so you can be expressive using your hands. 

I have not worked with the new Articulation feature yet but this sounds like a tool that was made for this stuff too. 

Edited November 29, 2021 by John Vere

[Stuart Smith]

4 hours ago, John Vere said:

Obviously in your controllers settings options the mod  wheel is assigned to velocity?  Never heard of that one Volume yes, velocity? No. 
Velocity is normally controlled with the keys. Be aware that velocity is not the same as volume.
Velocity changes the timber to reflect a soft or hard attack like how hard you blow, pluck or strike an instrument. 
For strings it’s often a combination of volume and velocity to get the correct swelling effects etc. 

This is why velocity is normally controlled with your keyboard so you can be expressive using your hands. 

I have not worked with the new Articulation feature yet but this sounds like a tool that was made for this stuff too. 

Hi Thanks for the reply,

 

The Display on my  lauchkey  says CC#001 and moves up to 127 (which would indicate velocity as volume would read 1-100) when used  either when recording, or listening back to the recorded midi. 

my understanding is, at least during playback the mod wheel shouldnt effect the original recording. looks like it is. 

[User 905133]

19 minutes ago, Stuart Smith said:

The Display on my  lauchkey  says CC#001 and moves up to 127 (which would indicate velocity as volume would read 1-100) when used  either when recording, or listening back to the recorded midi. 

  CC1 is not velocity. While CC1 can be mapped to different parameters, traditionally it was used for modulation.

CC = Continuous Control and unless a synth engine specifically disables a particular mapped parameter from having real time control, CCs control parameters in real time.

22 minutes ago, Stuart Smith said:

my understanding is, at least during playback the mod wheel shouldnt effect the original recording. looks like it is. 

  If (1) you record CCs on a track with midi mote data and then (2) playback the track, (3) the sound generated from the midi data (hardware or soft synths) should respond according to the CCs on that midi channel.

 

 

 

Edited November 29, 2021 by User 905133
(2) to add a comment about recorded CCs; (1) to quote the comment I was responding to.

[Stuart Smith]

10 minutes ago, User 905133 said:

  CC1 is not velocity. While CC1 can be mapped to different parameters, traditionally it was used for modulation.

CC = Continuous Control and unless a synth engine specifically disables a particular mapped parameter from having real time control, CCs control parameters in real time.

  If (1) you record CCs on a track with midi mote data and then (2) playback the track, (3) the sound generated from the midi data (hardware or soft synths) should respond according to the CCs on that midi channel.

 

 

I've completely miss understood  mod wheel use and CC stuff then, wow.  

Im guessing i need to programme the lauchkey to what ever CC channel cakewalk uses for velocity so i can add dynamics to my midi recordings?

Anyone know what CC does that in cakewalk?

[scook]

It is up to the plug-in not Cakewalk.

The MIDI standard uses 7 for volume.

Some plug-ins follow the standard, some allow the user to make assignments, some do both, some ignore CC entirely.

[Stuart Smith]

11 minutes ago, scook said:

It is up to the plug-in not Cakewalk.

The MIDI standard uses 7 for volume.

Some plug-ins follow the standard, some allow the user to make assignments, some do both, some ignore CC entirely.

in this instance its the Latest Kontak, i did have a pretty good look to see if i can change it there but nothing.

 

[User 905133]

If your hardware or software synth responds to what's called "expression" in the MIDI specs, another option is CC11 (expression).

PS: I don't have Kontakt, so I have no idea it respects CC11. If the soft synths you use have documentation, ideally that would have the information you need, because:

24 minutes ago, scook said:

Some plug-ins follow the standard, some allow the user to make assignments, some do both, some ignore CC entirely.

 

Edited November 29, 2021 by User 905133
to add a PS + to emphasize checking plug-in documentation for details about MIDI implimentation

[Stuart Smith]

11 minutes ago, User 905133 said:

If your hardware or software synth responds to what's called "expression" in the MIDI specs, another option is CC11 (expression).

can confirm the novation launchkey 25 doesnt do expression. 

i might have to persist with recording without the mod wheel for now and put the velocity in manually later. 

would like to really have it working though!  dont know why its so hard

[scook]

1 hour ago, Stuart Smith said:

in this instance its the Latest Kontak, i did have a pretty good look to see if i can change it there but nothing.

 

I don't have Kontak but it is my understanding how CCs are handled in the plug-in depend on the library loaded.

The plug-in also has extensive options for user mods.

[Stuart Smith]

5 minutes ago, scook said:

I don't have Kontak but it is my understanding how CCs are handing in the plug-in depend on the library loaded.

The plug-in also has extensive options for user mods.

I see, it seems i have a lot more learning to do in the kontakt/midi space

 

thanks everyone for knowledge sharing on this, has helped a lot. 

[User 905133]

I looked up "do kontakt instruments respond to CC11 expression?"  You might want to do some searches and read up on what's said about that with regard to Kontakt's use of CCs, including CC1 and CC11.  

As for the novation (which I don't have either), what kind of midi data does the modulation wheel generate?  Assuming it does generate some sort of CC data, the next question I would ask is, can it be mapped to either volume or expression (or to any other parameters on a patch by patch basis, if the plug-in allows it)? 

Here's just one link I found that might be helpful.

44 minutes ago, scook said:

. . . it is my understanding how CCs are handled in the plug-in depend on the library loaded.

Based on the little blurbs from the online search, I got the same impression!

Edited November 29, 2021 by User 905133
to fix a typo

[Stuart Smith]

38 minutes ago, User 905133 said:

I looked up "do kontakt instruments respond to CC11 expression?"  You might want to do some searches and read up on what's said about that with regard to Kontakt's use of CCs, including CC1 and CC11.  

As for the novation (which I don't have either), what kind of midi data does the modulation wheel generate?  Assuming it does generate some sort of CC data, the next question I would ask is, can it be mapped to either volume or expression (or to any other parameters on a patch by patch basis, if the plug-in allows it)? 

Here's just one link I found that might be helpful.

Based on the little blurbs from the online search, I got the same impression!

thanks for that everyone, back to putting the nose to the grindstone figuring it all out. appreciate everyone's assistance

[John Vere]

Isn't the controller Velocity sensitive? To lazy to look it up,  but pretty much all controllers are velocity sensitive so as I said in my first post you "play" velocity by pressing the keys harder or softer. The controller will also have a Velocity curve setting to fine tune your playing style to the keyboards response. I turn off Velocity when recording organ and bass parts, traditional B# are not velocity sensitive and bass I want even for the type of music I make.