jackson white

similar here, except that "dry" = "well recorded acoustic" drums. i'm assuming you're processing samples for effect, not sure anyone would call an 808 "dry" ?. and to your point, can't think of a snare that hasn't been processed in some way. it's all about the right sound for the song. ... bfd has always struck me as "less over processed" if that makes any sense, or maybe better ambient recording/management and easier to dial in a unique sound for a track. i've tried AD2 but find i'm always trying to "undo" the sound (specifically the ambience) to get it to work and my skills haven't been good enough to manage that so far. i'd be very surprised if the SD samples were "bad", it's more a question of usability for a specific purpose. my opinion is there's too much of a 'polish' (= ambience) baked in, which is totally awesome if you need something good quickly, but i'm looking for something "rawer" which probably has more to do with the specific engineering for the samples. bfd did a nice job in this respect. The number of velocity levels is also a major factor for "dynamic" performances. haven't yet found drum replacers to be the right tool. ... considered this (as well as other options), but do a lot of drum programming and have a strong aversion to their UI in addition to the limited options for the few libraries i checked out. and considered reaching out to Vojtech@Melda to see what plans he had for MDrummer, but my sense is his philosophy is more aligned with loop/sample based creativity vs "old school" recording techniques. his piano did sound promising though. it was also my suggestion on the PA survey. ... the perception for sure, but SD3 plus a couple of libraries is gonna run >US$750 which isn't exactly a trivial investment without a demo plus haven't been super excited with the sample clips in addition to the learning curve, setting up custom templates, managing existing projects in progress and losing some goto sounds. i.e. a DW kit which apparently is only available as an EZD2 add on. also noting that while it is well recognized, doesn't seem to be much of a goto for peeps here, so ya, maybe bfd will sort out their issues (but it's been over a year...) or maybe TT will have a fire sale, or someone in my network will dig in and give it a shot. but all comments are most helpful, thx. would love to hear any opinions for the following kits if anyone has them. NY Studio 1 NY Studio 3 Independent Roots Bundle

yes, but working on that. my goto drummer recently relocated to LA and is working on a setup to track remotely. there's some limit to the sounds he can get atm, but he's building up a locker of mics, preamps, drums and we're working on different micing techniques and "acoustic modifiers" (stuff like hard reflective panels for a more live sound, etc). however, not exactly cost effective for rounds of preproduction, so the preliminary core groove work still falls back on me. it helps to have had the fortune to play with a number of great drummers and pick up a few things to make a difference to capture a serviceable 'performance' to work with. -every- time. i keep it simple to avoid getting called out too quickly. ? I have found that better -sounds- make a difference though, and are more "inspiring"during the preproduction phase and thus the driver for this thread. indeed! right on Duke, and -why- tracking rhythm sections live is the only way to go. hopefully those days are still around to be appreciated. the 'aha' moment for me came when charting out a Los Lobos tune and and having to create a custom tempo map with all kinds of contour to match what sounds like a locked down groove. The second came a day after tracking a session and wondering what the heck happened to my part, only to find out the assistant had "fixed" my take by aligning it to the grid/drum take (pro tools!! smh...) it did help dial in what makes a difference for the groove.

@John Vere thx, appreciate the clips, ur covering the same general territory genre wise, nice job on the tunes. I tried AD2 on a track (Fairfax kit? which iirc is a Gretsch RB kit) but find it pales in comparison to the one in BFD. I tend to mix drums a bit more forward than you do and there's something about the ambience that makes a difference. that being said, I'm hardly what anyone would call an experienced mix engineer, still figuring it all out... lately it's been pre-production for "emerging singer/songwriters". a singer and a guitar all tend to sound the same. i try to help them develop a -unique- sonic signature, which is why presets haven't been very useful. they're mostly 20-30 yr olds and half the challenge is weaning them off samples, loops and smart phones, but to their credit, they seem to hear/appreciate/search for the "authentic vibe of the classics" based on the references they bring to the table. styles are some form of roots rock, americana, folk, celtic, alt/outlaw country, 'modern' blues, "vintage" r&b, etc but at the core it's all about "acoustic/organic/natural" sounds played by human beings with a priority on a performance over perfection. producer references are the likes of Chuck Ainlay, Dave Cobb, John Leventhal, T-Bone Burnett, etc (as well as George Martin, Sam Philips, Al Schmitt). ... imho, drums sounds can make a pretty big difference in sounding like -something- vs anything...

modelling could have potential but have not given it a shot for two reasons. other bfd users tried it and found the sound to be less "dimensional/realistic/usable" for the core genres we work on. and my impression is it would take a fair amount of time/expertise to model the drum sound you were looking for. the demo sound clips didn't do much for me, but open for a closer look if you know of a clip that sounds good. the recent disaster that is drm for InMusic has also strengthened our resolve to 'blacklist' any excessive overhead maintenance/licensing requirements (i.e. IK, Waves, ... )

(porting a couple of "OT" comments from another thread) @Tim Smith "Can a listener pick out EZD from BFD3 or AD3 on a record?" possibly, if they haven't been over-produced into a block of velveeta cheez and you know what to listen for. hard to imagine something like EZD/AD2 being used on a commercial release but BFD did get a number of credits (if the producer didn't think it was 'cheating'). @LAGinz "If the only criteria were sound, I’d probably use BFD3 on most of my projects. To me its drums just sound more real and dynamically correct - whereas the Toontrack stuff, to me at least, has a very slightly hyped up glossy quality to it." ya, same here. For straight up well -recorded- samples vs 'over engineered' alternatives, always found bfd cymbals in particular and their ambient channels to be best-in-class for "acoustic/organic" material (i.e. not trying to emulate some classic sound). And there's other bits like top/bottom mics for at least one set of toms, haven't been able to find that anywhere else. ... Haven't given SD3 much of a shot yet as the demos on the TT site are a bit too produced to be helpful, but noting some of their kits feature "raw" samples. Any comments/sound examples for the following kits would be appreciated. NY Studio 1 NY Studio 3 Independent Roots Bundle The other issue is kits that have been mainstays in BFD are only listed as EZD2, which is why I was thinking about it, but the perception is a difference in quality/dynamic depth.

ya, saw that, but not sure i want to revisit a vst that is getting obsoleted in less than month if i read their faqs correctly. didn't love what i'd heard of EZD2 (but tbh, never gave them a fair shot, assumed they were on par with AD2 which i didn't love) and EZD3 is claiming new kits...

trying to sort out a few things, might as well stake it to a more appropriate location...

longtime bfd user exploring options/alternatives for quality drum sounds, which has been the single largest investment in any plugin for me. priorities are; sound quality mostly -well recorded- "acoustic/organic/natural" sounds vs. heavily processed dynamics, # velocity layers are important range of sounds/expansions/libraries (more is better) ease of use (kit construction, kit piece design/optimization/layering, integration with a DAW) licensing/drm (ease of use?) stability typical workflow includes a preset which routes all drum vst channels to the DAW for mixing/midi programming almost never use drum vst fx, although they have been useful at times in bfd have yet to make use of any grooves/presets/song arranger/etc. ... past experience includes anything bundled with Sonar/Logic. haven't tried whatever comes with S1. any thoughts, insights, comments appreciated.

From the TT site. "Q: Is there a trial or demo version available? A: No, there is currently no trial or demo version available." @DeeringAmps despite the OT tangents, opinions vs alternatives can be helpful for those with no direct experience with EZD/SD before plunking down full price. and ya, a specific/different thread would be more interesting/productive. jmho.

@Tim Smith link is working like a champ here, possibly ur browser?

agreed! i remember being impressed with the demo (years ago), but it was a significant load on the dsp. is that still the case?

https://www.austinchronicle.com/music/2022-04-01/heavy-lifting-the-hammond-organ-has-a-special-place-in-austin-i-should-know

I don't think this applies to B3 players....

hmmm... been pretty disciplined about weaning myself off the uad ecosystem, mainly because of the cost/overhead/portability of a dsp dongle which will eventually fail. had been holding out for a decent price on the "original" https://www.empiricallabs.com/product/arousor/ but it's never been lower than $129 and only once at that. the uad announcement of a move to native has me rethinking the options but... currently not available in native and no guarantees of a native release (per the uad mantra of "Nothing to announce at this time.") so... perhaps a little self intervention is in order to quit buying $15 plugins that -might- get used and apply a couple of rounds to make up the diff for the OG version. It's nice to have options, but perhaps better to be well versed in fewer but best-in-class versions.

exactly. something along the lines of this; vs this.

this lad gave it a shot...

native vs. satellite/PCIe helps with mobile sessions, but I'm already far down the path of existing native equivalents thx to PA (and @cclarry). I expect there will be some interest in native vs. dsp benchmarks (+ null tests to confirm equivalent quality?) but the cost/benefit analysis comes down to core CPU vs supplemental DSP = a hefty premium for DSP based plugins given where CPU benchmarks are going >> a diminishing market for the existing satellite/PCIe formats at the current prices. Tracking latency should still be a plus and they could try to buy some time by making a deal with Acustica Audio ?. If there is value in supplemental DSP for some users, I'd be curious as how to manage native vs DSP instances of the same plugin in the same project. (edit: as there is no Win support atm, answers ad infinitum in an avalanche of a thread on GS...) on a related note, recently checked out Luna and found having a row of meters across the top to be kinda fun for tracking live if you like to bend needles. I've used an S1 project for this before but Luna was a better UX.

I'd be interested to understand what happens to projects that use plugins tied to the PCIe card. Have to assume the "native" versions will use a new plugin ID. = one more folder to maintain? And how they compare to the PA equivalents., etc.

America's Got Talent >> Who Needs Talent?

The OG "production tool"... https://www.fisher-price.com/en-ca/product/fisher-price-classic-xylophone-cmy09

"Should music be easier to make?" "...music is lagging behind..." "making music still involves mastering all those confusing frets, keys, tempos, and chord progressions" "Most of the [production] tools that you would use, like Logic or Ableton Live, are still at this pro level. They’re hard to use, and it’s challenging to learn an instrument." https://www.bostonglobe.com/2022/03/20/business/startups-aim-bring-music-making-masses/ "production tools designed to be less intimidating than existing software" ... ya, sounds like a plot to make karaoke bars look good...

pretty much what I look for as well. the one in S-Gear/Wayfarer has been working for me. Had this in the pile, but not given it a shot yet. https://www.musicalentropy.com/TheGreatEscape.html The Audiority Tube Modulator could be interesting, perhaps along the same line as the ST ? And then there's this... http://swartamps.com/amplifiers-swart_str-tremolo.htm

@jesse g it's there now. I have another plug from them, didn't recall the deets, tried checking FAQs and got the "404" but all good now. thx.

anybody tried "activating" this yet? thought I might be doing something wrong, tried checking FAQs on SSL site >> "Bummer. It looks like the help center at solidstatelogic.zendesk.com no longer exists."

Back on track, although PA is apparently driving into a different ditch. Metering is upside down in at least a couple of plugins. bx_console N noted here, other "bx" plugins reported.