minminmusic Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 So...I'm doing drum augmentation. Used SD3 to track notes from the performance and it mostly does a great job. Now...after the MIDI has been imported back into Cakewalk, let's say I'm bringing the real snare track up to the MIDI snare track...zooming in and comparing start times to minimize phase or flams. Is there anyway to auto-split each MIDI drum hit into it's own clip so I can visually align those notes that SD3 didn't quite catch? I've doing it manually but it SUCKS. I know that you have the Split Clips menu but unless I'm missing something those options are too broad and won't work in this application. Any thoughts/suggestions so I don't Hulk out too much!!! 1) Record real performance. 2) Extract performance data with SD3 (seems to be one of the better options, I've tried most) 3) Tighten up MIDI note tracking against the real performance. 4) Once final drum sample sounds are chosen, print. 5) Last step is experimental and I haven't gotten there yet...but use Auto Align 2 Post to further tighten phase/timing between the samples and the original drum performance. Not well know, but SoundRadix has confirmed that the Post version can do micro editing to align sources with slight timing discrepancies as well as phase between the real and the sample ala Voc-Align. Not sure if that does anything to the sound but you would think there's enough silence between the sample hits (unless you print with bleed) that that process "could" be automated with little negative impact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Baay Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 (edited) Set the Edit Filter in the MIDI track to "Notes" to enable the Inline PRV, and you can drag the notes independently just as you would in the 'full' PRV. You might also want to look in to using CbB's own Drum Replacer ARA FX if you haven't already. Edited October 22, 2023 by David Baay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minminmusic Posted October 22, 2023 Author Share Posted October 22, 2023 To be clear...I'm doing this in the main window as that's the only way I know how to do "comparative" editing. Thought for years if the Piano role had a transparency level and you could chose which track was "underneath" that would negate my original original question. See below image for how I'm approaching right now. Pre me splitting the midi clip up...is there an easier way to do that? On some simpler tracks I've used Audiosnap Pallete but it really doesn't work that well and certainly not adjusting the old fashioned way. First pic is an overview of all the cuts...second is of the midi note after being dragged to "really" line up with start of the snare waveform. How would I approach your method in this fashion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minminmusic Posted October 22, 2023 Author Share Posted October 22, 2023 I also go through, once I've aligned everything and pan the sample to the left, real snare to the right...listen on headphones and make sure they are as tight as they can be. Judging waveforms with bleed sometimes can be quite the visual rollercoaster ride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutrageProductions Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 Editing at the micro level is pretty much 'note by note', but I'd second @David Baay's concept of trying the CW DrumReplacer. Also... learn to have patience, grasshopper. 🙂 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minminmusic Posted October 22, 2023 Author Share Posted October 22, 2023 I've been working with Cakewalk since the mid-nineties...patience is a virtue for certain and I have plenty of it. I stick with it because I truly believe it's still one of the most fully functional DAWS out there. Adopted Drumagog a bajillion years ago. and have tried almost every method...including taping piezo triggers to the drums during the tracking sessions. It's just my ears have become very sensitive to any kind of sample layering where the sweet spot is where it blends ans doesn't smear/flam. Trigger 2, Addictive Trigger, AppTrigga3...they all work well and get it to the 95% range but the time spent manually tightening here and there is where the difference is made. I'm just looking to auto split like midi track in my picture...which was all done by hand but still is time consuming. If I could take the AudioSnap Pallete scissor and split the whole track into separate events bases on the start times...that would be swell. I zoom in super close to both...and if they are aligned tab to the next event, if not move the midi note accordingly. But I need to see the real snare to make those decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutrageProductions Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 Just a thought here, but have you tried to copy the audio track and then apply the 'Remove Silence' function? By super tweaking those settings, and then tabbing through the result (which goes to next event/transient), you should be able to zoom and inspect the alignment of the MIDI trigger with the impulse of the real drum. I often have to do 'forensic' audio for clients and have found that function to be of great assistance. But it requires a lot of time, none-the-less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minminmusic Posted October 22, 2023 Author Share Posted October 22, 2023 By placing the two tracks next to each other...I'm kinda doing that now. Your suggestion might clean up the audio bleed/sludge that can make it harder to visualize the exact moment the snare or tom is hit (any part with cymbal washes/rides are difficult) but I still have to go through the midi track and cut that roughly before every note. It's a pain to be sure and I can't imagine there isn't anyone else who hasn't wished for an auto-split. In theory, piezo triggers during tracking make the most sense as they are really detecting the impact of the stick quicker then the first spot mics that capture the sound. My problem them is is trying to filter out exactly what you don't need them to focus on. Hoping some day through GPS/positional sensoring something couldn't be developed on the drum stick/drum skin level detecting exact note on/off information. I just found to trying to bugger with MIDI while tracking real drums is a pain in butt. But then so is this so go figure. Thanks for your continued thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutrageProductions Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 (edited) The 'Remove Silence' is as close to an auto split that is available. A lot of people think that making music is easy, but if you want to do it really well... it's not. Edited October 22, 2023 by OutrageProductions 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minminmusic Posted October 22, 2023 Author Share Posted October 22, 2023 But Remove Silence doesn't work on MIDI, only audio correct? I'm not looking to move the real snare against the samples...the opposite. Chopping up the midi within the main view so I can compare and manually adjust the midi to the audio. I guess that would work once the samples are printed, but I'm trying to get it as tight as I can prior to that step. In my first post above I've been lead to believe that Auto Align 2 POST...will do that once they are printed with the added benefit of not only matching start times but the flipping the phase of the sample hits to match the real snare. Now I haven't tried that yet...but if that works that would be brilliant!!! Agreed...the large majority have no idea how much production time goes into a 3 minute pop song lol. But I can guess the same could be said about movies, literature and art in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutrageProductions Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 I was of the understanding that you are trying to trigger MIDI samples to match the existing audio track drum, so yes, Remove Silence only works on the audio track. Then you can tab from transient to transient and slide/nudge the midi note to match the implulse response of the target drum audio. If this is an incorrect interpolation, then just ignore my advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Baay Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 (edited) 8 hours ago, minminmusic said: To be clear...I'm doing this in the main window as that's the only way I know how to do "comparative" editing. Yes, I understood. The Inline PRV is a mode of MIDI tracks in the track view that gives you the ability to edit/move individual notes in a MIDI clip just as you would in the full Piano Roll View. It is enabled by setting the Edit Filter in the track header to "Notes": https://legacy.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=Cakewalk&language=3&help=EditingMIDI.27.html Edited October 23, 2023 by David Baay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minminmusic Posted October 23, 2023 Author Share Posted October 23, 2023 Thanks David!!! That seems to work much closer to how I thought. After yesterday's discussion (and after I chopped and aligned everything I needed) I just opened the next project I have for this album and tried the above method and I think it works closer to how I envisioned. I'll give it a go and see if it works for my editing needs. Better to know now when I still have another 5 songs to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minminmusic Posted October 23, 2023 Author Share Posted October 23, 2023 Ok..that works MUCH better. Question...I have the two tracks next to each other in track view. Midi on top, audio on bottom. The white event/transient start marker that's on the midi note...any way to get that traverse the whole page view so it makes it visually quicker to align with the wave form? It's much easier now but if there was a way that that could extend (upwards or downwards) like the pool markers so i can quickly grab the note and align with the waveform start that would be brilliant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
57Gregy Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 Couldn't you drag the 'real' drum track to Melodyne, thus converting it to MIDI, and have an exact copy, timewise, of the drum track? Then output that to any drum synth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minminmusic Posted October 23, 2023 Author Share Posted October 23, 2023 55 minutes ago, 57Gregy said: Couldn't you drag the 'real' drum track to Melodyne, thus converting it to MIDI, and have an exact copy, timewise, of the drum track? Then output that to any drum synth. Haven't tried that method but I'm going to guess it may still have the same pitfalls of pulling midi events from any mic recorded track that has bleed where there's wiggle room that most of the software doesn't get 100% accurate. 100%...I guess equals when the stick hits the snare (or whatever). Almost all methods I've used are microscopically late/early? I've gone down many drum replacement rabbit holes and it's a common issues. On forums, videos...it's talked about. Not having it totally tight slurs/smears the sound a bit. Once I go through and manually align the notes it sounds so much tighter, especially on fills etc. Even printing those notes to audio, whether samples or using Trigger 2, Drumagog etc. you still need to go through and double check those things. This project is a synthwave, dreampop album where I want the drum sounds to sound electronic but wanted a core, real drum performance as programming that would never have the right "feel". Cyborg drums forever lol! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Baay Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, minminmusic said: The white event/transient start marker that's on the midi note...any way to get that traverse the whole page view so it makes it visually quicker to align with the wave form? It's much easier now but if there was a way that that could extend (upwards or downwards) like the pool markers so i can quickly grab the note and align with the waveform start that would be brilliant. That "start marker" on the MIDI note is the velocity "tail". In the PRV, if you have Aim Assist enabled (hotkey X), the Aim Assist line automatically jumps to to the start of the MIDI note when you click to drag it; unfortunately, this doesn't happen in the Inline PRV (feature request). But what you can do is enable Snap to Landmarks with Audio Transients checked and the MIDI note will snap to the transient marker. Or, if you feel the transient markers aren't accurately placed, you can enable snap to Now time in Landmarks, put the Now time where you want it and snap the MIDI note to it. Edited October 23, 2023 by David Baay 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minminmusic Posted October 23, 2023 Author Share Posted October 23, 2023 21 minutes ago, David Baay said: That "start marker" on the MIDI note is the velocity "tail". In the PRV, if you have Aim Assist enabled (hotkey X), the Aim Assist line automatically jumps to to the start of the MIDI note when you click to drag it; unfortunately, this doesn't happen in the Inline PRV (feature request). But what you can do is enable Snap to Landmarks with Audio Transients checked and the MIDI note will snap to the transient marker. Or, if you feel the transient markers aren;t accurately placed, you can enabled snap to Now time in Landmarks, put the Now time where you want it and snap the MIDI note to it. Thanks David...I'll try that and see if that helps. Right now, I just click on the place on the waveform so the playbar moves there and then just drag the midi not. Your tip helped me out this morning though. The way I was editing yesterday it took me almost all day...I was able to do that in less than an hour this morning! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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