Clip Gain Editing Anomoly (SOLVED)

[Bill Phillips]

I need some help troubleshooting a clip envelope editing problem I'm having that I'm guessing others might run into as well. I don't think it's new with 2021.11 though I only ran into it after I began using 2021.11 (build 010).

I know that envelope editing has had a lot of recent improvements which have been very useful to me. And for the most part envelope editing works pretty well for me except for some things like selecting the whole envelope or a number of nodes to move as a group. In this case though something that's seems to be rock solid (selecting and dragging up/down a envelope segment between two nodes) works consistently intermittently for the audio clip shown in the video below. It's also occurred on other clips but not on all. At this point I'm generally making small changes to envelopes drawn earlier without this problem I think. It might have something to do with take lanes because the two BV clips both have two take lanes and the Bass DI clip below has a single take. I don't recall any issues making a couple of clip envelope adjustments on the bass clip.

There are two takes of the clip. The shorter one is soloed. I've tried adjusting the automation both in the take lane and in the track. I seem to have the same problem in either case. Basically, I can move the cursor into the segment selection area at the top; click and release to select the segment; then click again and try to drag down but the selection is dropped frequently and doesn't move. When this happens I've learned that I can grab one of the highlighted nodes and drag the segment down.

I don't think this contributes to the problem, but I'm learning to use a Kensington Expert Wireless Mouse (trackball). So I've tried this with both the trackball and a conventional wireless Logitech mouse. They are both active. In the video I'm using the mouse because I'm much worse at this using the trackball.

As you can see in the video, the select and drag operation doesn't work. Sometimes it does. I've tried every combination of track or take lane being selected, having the focus, having the clip selected. None of that seems to make a difference.

I'm using 2021.11. I ran into this on the Early Release (010) and for the video was using (015). I haven't worked on automation on these clips for a while (probably October)  and don't recall having this problem before. I have clip automation on every clip and I've been working on this song for years on and off, though is is a new mix started back in September.

In the online documentation under Using tools to perform common tasks I found this but nothing else:

To raise/lower an audio Clip Gain envelope
1. Set the track’s Edit Filter control to Clips.
2. Select the Smart tool
.
3. Hold down the CTRL key and drag the bottom part of the clip up/down.

Tip: For greater control over clip gain envelopes, set the Event Filter to Clip Automation > Gain.
Note: Clip envelopes can be adjusted in the parent track or in a Take lane

Edited December 27, 2022 by Bill Phillips
Solved

[msmcleod]

@Bill Phillips - your video example shows the track edit filter as "Clip Automation", whereas the CTRL + drag in lower part is the smart-tool behaviour for clip-gain when the track filter is set to "Clips" (step 1 in your highlighted part of the documentation).

The smart tool behaviour is as follows:

• Track Filter = "Clips":    CTRL + drag in the lower part of the clip to alter the level of the ENTIRE clip-gain envelope
• Track Filter = "Clip Automation":    Select the area at the lower part of the clip, then drag from top using the shelf tool - no modifiers are involved.

BTW - the way I'm switching the track edit filter between "Clips" and "Clip Gain Automation" is by using the "Toggle Track/Clip Gain in the Edit Filter" key binding in the "Track View" area.

I've got this set to the key between SHIFT and Z - this is "\" on a UK keyboard.  IIRC, this is " ` " (backward single quote) on a US keyboard:

 

[msmcleod]

29 minutes ago, WalkerTalker said:

Just wondering if you found a solution to this?

I'm on the latest release, but have seen this behaviour in many previous versions (as well as 2022.09).

Thanks,

John

This should have been fixed in 2022.09.   The issue was that by making a selection using the time ruler it was also selecting any tempo-track nodes in that time range (which is correct), however the shelf tool should have been ignoring the tempo track nodes when using the shelf tool on another automation envelope.  The code detected that it was about to alter nodes that it shouldn't be and was bailing out to avoid messing up your project.

The fix was to ignore any tempo track nodes when using the shelf tool on another envelope. However, the original check/bail-out is still there - so if at any point the shelf tool stops working, it's likely you've got more in your selection that you intended.

To be honest, selecting a time range using the time ruler is pretty dangerous if your intention is to select a specific set of nodes, as it'll select everything in that time range.

It's much safer to use the bottom half of the clip or envelope to select your time range, so you're only selecting exactly what you're about to modify.

[RBH]

If I'm seeing your video clip correctly ( old eyes so maybe not ). It looks as though your trying to select in the upper part of the clip  - and missing the envelope line outside of it's select range if you are trying to directly select the line. I'm having a hard time seeing exacty where your clips begin and end with-out the clip headers showing. I agree that it's sometimes hard to get the envelope nodes selected for editing - the way I assume they should be selected.

[Bill Phillips]

14 hours ago, RBH said:

If I'm seeing your video clip correctly ( old eyes so maybe not ). It looks as though your trying to select in the upper part of the clip  - and missing the envelope line outside of it's select range if you are trying to directly select the line. I'm having a hard time seeing exacty where your clips begin and end with-out the clip headers showing. I agree that it's sometimes hard to get the envelope nodes selected for editing - the way I assume they should be selected.

Thanks for looking, but the situation you're describing doesn't exist in the video and isn't causing my problem. I have "old eyes" too and am replying to you on my phone. To see the video clearly I tapped the video clip in landscape view and used two fingers to zoom in. 

I'll explain what's going on.

I placed the cursor above the clip because the envelope is at +6 dB putting it at the top of the clip boundary and the cursor must be above the envelope and above the top of the clip frame.

Once the cursor was above the envelope between two nodes and the level adjustment tool cursor (probably not the correct name) appeared. I clicked once to select the segment which shaded the clip area between the  two nodes.

I then clicked the tool again holding it this time. In the video clip the cursor turns yellow. Then I dragged down which should lower the selected segment but the segment doesn't move. I tried this several times. No luck. 

However I was able to click on one of the nodes defining the segment and drag it down to lower the gain for the shaded segment that way. 

Hopefully that clears it up for you. 

Edited November 8, 2021 by Bill Phillips

[RBH]

Ok I understand the video better, thanks.  I'm still on 2021 09  but I will try to see if 2021-11 works any differently for me. As far as generally utilizing clip gain, it has always worked for me though I likely am working with a higher zoom level and editing small clip selections.

[Bill Phillips]

3 hours ago, RBH said:

Ok I understand the video better, thanks.  I'm still on 2021 09  but I will try to see if 2021-11 works any differently for me. As far as generally utilizing clip gain, it has always worked for me though I likely am working with a higher zoom level and editing small clip selections.

Thanks. I guess I'll submit it to the Feedback Loop. 

[WalkerTalker]

Just wondering if you found a solution to this?

I'm on the latest release, but have seen this behaviour in many previous versions (as well as 2022.09).

Thanks,

John

[Bill Phillips]

On 10/21/2022 at 5:21 AM, msmcleod said:

This should have been fixed in 2022.09.  

The "ctrl-click in lower have of clip" way of selecting a clip envelope still isn't working for me in 2022.11. In the attached GIF you can see that the smart tool is selected and the in-clip selections shown are being done using ctrl-click. I move the cursor while holding ctrl-clip to highlight that I'm holding ctrl-clip. No envelope selection is being made. I finally managed to do it I think by multi-clicking a single node.

Edited December 27, 2022 by Bill Phillips
Added GIF

[Bill Phillips]

1 hour ago, msmcleod said:

• Track Filter = "Clips":    CTRL + drag in the lower part of the clip to alter the level of the ENTIRE clip-gain envelope

Thank you @msmcleod. This is news to me, but it's clearly stated in the screenshot I included that the Edit filter is set to "Clips." As is so often the case, the answer to my question is staring me in the face but I don't see it. I think my problem is that automation editing is by far the most common editing I do and the editing tools are so expansive and powerful that I get lost. What I need to do is learn that "Creating and editing automation envelopes" section of the Documentation that I took the screenshot attachment to my last post from.