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tparker24

Melodyne on comp track, wipes original take lanes

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Posted (edited)

I speed comp some vocal track lanes, select them all as a region, and then run Melodyne as a Region FX.

My original track lanes get immediately wiped , before Melodyne eventually shows up in the Dock.

This doesn't seem right.  Am I doing something wrong?

try9.gif.225086de7b7d68c7cc92ae5ec8a45fb7.gif

I'd like to do be able to do things like in the Celemony video Comping with Melodyne

I'm running the latest Cakewalk, latest Melodyne Editor 5, and latest Windows 10.

 

Edited by tparker24
typo

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Posted (edited)

UPDATE:  I think my analysis below, is not correct.   So, I'm going back to my original post above.  And I share the concerns expressed below by @Glenn Stanton

(Can you tell I'm confused by comping with melodyne?  🤥 )

Ok, I think I figured it out!  

Thanks to this article I found by Craig Anderton:  Comping with Melodyne and Other Region FX Clips  (see page 5).

Basically, I need to do a separate Create Region FX for each clip area.  In my example above, that would be 7 separate Create Region FX (1 for each of the 7 clips sections).

I note that the original data for each clip take will still be immediately replaced by the Melodyne version.  Some posters have suggested making a copy of the original takes prior to using Melodyne ... just in case you might need the original.

Kind of confusing, but I think I'm starting to understand ...

 

Here are two other posts I found that may be relevant:

https://discuss.cakewalk.com/index.php?/topic/9804-how-to-use-melodyne-while-comping/
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Audio-Comping-Melodyne-Editing-m3610118.aspx

 

 

Edited by tparker24
My post was all wrong!
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@tparker24 you must "flatten comp" on your vocal track first so that it renders a complete phrase or clip that can then be processed within Melodyne and VocalSync. 

Flatten your comp by right clicking on the main track, as well as deleting any muted parts that are being discarded to help clean it up if you desire to do so.  I always keep an archived track of my original non-processed performances for back up in case something goes wrong.

Do take note of the tracks data being "locked" after your comp has been flattened.  Unlock the clip so that it can be processed. 

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Posted (edited)

in the video though, Melodyne is using ARA to somehow in sync with the takes and didn't seem to need to flatten them. flattening would seem to reduce or eliminate the ability to flexibly adjust things without un-flatten/re-flatten. maybe the ARA functions on the take lanes are not communicating on the take boundary/edits? we know the takes are already embedded in a single WAV file, so maybe the take edits need ARA to sync their locations data with Melodyne?

edit - @Noel Borthwick definitely not behaving like the Melodyne video which claims all versions support this... whether applying to each take lane or the entire segment, the non-selected portions of a take are flattened - effectively resulting in no ability to slide sections etc because the content of those are now zero'd out. 

so for now, basically you need to get all your edits done before using Melodyne... which negates a bunch of the features like sliding sections and adjusting node timing, adjustment of pitch across takes in the same selection, etc...

maybe this needs a some love?

Edited by Glenn Stanton
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Posted (edited)

When I tried to sort this out a while back in my post, I never did get it to work right and just gave up. I was hoping to figure it out now after seeing this post. I think I also communicated with celemony about it, I will have to look at my emails and see. It would be great to get it to work ! 

Ok so in my 2019 emails with celemony, I was told in the videos melodyne is used on individual clips as a clip FX. Right click on the clip then insert as clip FX that’s it. He says the method Noel replied to my post on the forum - to apply melodyne to take lanes 1 2 3 and 4 etc  and then cut them into clips where I want and melodyne will be on each clip. He said yes, this is the way to use it as a track FX.

Honestly I don’t remember what was happening when I did these methods, but I know I gave up. I am recording some vocals soon so I will give it a try again. 

Edited by treesha
to add info from 2019
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I found this documentation reference that seems to show a different mode of operation.   I note that:

  1. It doesn't say you need to create multiple Region FX, and
  2. From the picture, it looks like Take lanes have all had Melodyne incorporated, and the takes are present and accounted for (unlike my example above, where they have vanished).

This is the way I hoped it would work ... nice and simple.

The reference is from https://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=SONAR&language=3&help=NewFeatures.10.html which I assume is for old SONAR.  Have things really changed that drastically from then to now?

manual.jpg

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@tparker24 in the Essentials version of Melodyne, there is a limitation to a single instance of a melody or instrument.  Upgrading your tier of Melodyne will allow you to work  polyphonic such as a vocal quartet, in one rendering. 

In the image example you have presented could have been done as polyphonic or each rendered one at a time.   I suspect one at a time though but as you said, it doesn't say you can or cannot render multiple takes and perhaps someone with extensive knowledge could provide some context.

I believe the issue you are trying to work out here has to do with the tier version of Melodyne and not Cakewalk, as per my own personal experience with Essentials and with Editor, i can only conclude that this be the case. 

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12 hours ago, Glenn Stanton said:

in the video though, Melodyne is using ARA to somehow in sync with the takes and didn't seem to need to flatten them. flattening would seem to reduce or eliminate the ability to flexibly adjust things without un-flatten/re-flatten. maybe the ARA functions on the take lanes are not communicating on the take boundary/edits? we know the takes are already embedded in a single WAV file, so maybe the take edits need ARA to sync their locations data with Melodyne?

so for now, basically you need to get all your edits done before using Melodyne... which negates a bunch of the features like sliding sections and adjusting node timing, adjustment of pitch across takes in the same selection, etc...

maybe this needs a some love?

@Glenn Stanton from what I've gathered through my little journey through ARA integration is that certain features are tier specific within the Melodyne application. 

Essentials doesn't allow for polyphonic editing, one must upgrade to the Studio or Editor tier in order to have the functionality of editing stacks or layers or comps. 

But I have always defaulted to flatten my comps first anyways as a method I adopted after running into Melodyne not accepting a track that is made up of several clips in multiple clip lanes. 

I never questioned it as a lack of a feature at the time, more like how one has to loop your shoestring and pull it through a hoop before you can get a nice bow at the end!

 

melo.PNG

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Posted (edited)

@Clovis Ramsay thanks for the info.

BTW, I'm using Melodyne 5 Editor, as I mentioned in my original post.  I only really use Melodyne for vocals.

I'm still struggling though on comping with Melodyne.  I wish I could do it like in the video that @Glenn Stanton posted above.  There it seems so straightforward and flexible, with no need to prematurely freeze things with a flatten.

 

 

Edited by tparker24
typo
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Im using studio 5 since it was released. A short test just now at the end of a long day 😴i put melodyne using control m on 2 clips one in take lane 1 and the other in take lane 2 right below it one at a time. As soon as i put it on 2nd clip it became a line. I don’t use take lanes much in a while  and out of practice but thought maybe one was active and the other muted and checked and the one that flat lined was muted or not active and it was. When i got both take lanes to play together and then put melodyne on each it worked fine. Maybe it has to do with take lanes being some active and some silent the way they do to check through the takes one at a time?? Forgot the right terms cause its been a while. Anyways a quick look only so not 100% on this. 

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@Clovis Ramsay - in the Celemony video - they make a claim it works with all versions - which makes sense to some degree because all the takes reside in a single WAV file and the UI is rendering the appearance of "multiple" tracks using markers etc to divide up the WAV. (guessing here but it seems a reasonable assumption). i have Editor which supports the full polyphonic but not Studio which support multiple tracks as well.

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@treesha - same experience here - once you apply the Melodyne to a given take, it flatten inactive portions, and then if you drag the boundary lines in either direction it stays flat on those sections in both Melodyne and CW. and applying to multiple take lanes - same issue plus not selecting notes in parallel segments. when i get the chance i'll play with this more and see if i can document it as it definitely is not working as expected.

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Hi - I'm struggling to make it work too. - I'm using latest Cakewalk (2021.04 build 175) and Melodyne Assistant version (no multitrack editor, no polyphonic capabilities) 

Here are my findings:

  1. If I apply Melodyne to the whole track (comp lanes inside), Melodyne renders whatever clips are active into a single clip, losing the ability to work the individual clips again.
  2. If I apply Melodyne one by one on the individual takes of the comp track, I can work and hear the edits made on the comp tracks, but Melodyne displays all the blops of the clips stuck together - not useful at all.

Not sure if this is a limitation on my Melodyne version, or a malfunction on the integration of Melodyne with Cakewalk ...

I wonder if any of you are using Melodyne Studio+Cakewalk to check?

(in the meanwhile I think I'll try the 30 day test drive for Melodyne Editor  or Studio to  see how it behaves)

 

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Thanks!

I did some additional tests, and found out a way to work it out, with some limitations. Not sure how melodyne is applied in Cubase to composite tracks, so here is a way to use inside Cakewalk:

When applying melodyne to take lanes:

  • All takes must be active before applying melodyne. Otherwise, Melodyne renders the muted clips as silence. 
  • Each lane must be selected independently to select and apply the melodyne region (otherwise melodyne renders the whole comp track to one single melodyne composite take)
  • Once this is done, you can select and edit the comp takes as always, and melodyne reflects your selection in its own screen (the selection must be done in the cakewalk lane, not inside melodyne). 
  • For been able to see the different selected clips independently inside melodyne, I think you need the studio version, which provides multitrack editing, otherwise all the clips that has melodyne applied inside the comp track are displayed together in a single window, and this makes pointless the use of this comp+melodyne tool.

So, I guess that to really use the comp track with melodyne, you need to have the studio version.

 

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Update: in order to be able to see/edit the notes corresponding to a clip in the melodyne track - one at a time - you must select a clip in CW  and then select clip mode inside melodyne. 

Anyway, at the moment, even in this scenario, the changes in selected clips inside the comp track are not reflected in melodyne. 

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