Any other option than a linked clip to duplicate MIDI to another Track?

[JohnK]

I would like to duplicate the midi notes (not the bank changes or envelopes etc) to another track, so as to have two different VSTi's playing the same passage. The same as putting a linked clip onto the other track. I would prefer not to have a linked clip, as I am actually hoping to do it across many tracks, and I personally find the extra clips to be harder keep track of, and just visually messy.

I have read about how some VSTi's actually have a MIDI out, that can be routed as the MIDI input into another track. That sounds like it would enable what I wish to achieve. It seems to me it would be possibly enabled via an insert-able midi FX.

Does anyone know if cakewalk can do the above already, or it already has, or there is a third party insert-able MIDI FX providing this functionality?

[Kurre]

About complicated;

Do you know about multitimbral? Which means you have 16 different simultaneous sounds in one of those plugins.

S-YXG50 needs special software to access individual sounds and fx.

With TTS-1 you have access to individual sounds and fx.

[Nigel Mackay]

Can't get it to work either. Tried using Kontakt.  Also no joy.

[JohnK]

1 minute ago, Kurre said:

About complicated;

Do you know about multitimbral? Which means you have 16 different simultaneous sounds in one of those plugins.

S-YXG50 needs special software to access individual sounds and fx.

With TTS-1 you have access to individual sounds and fx.

I am not sure what you are getting at. I use S-YXG50 BECAUSE it is multitimbral. As such, I am using up to 16 channels, each with their own individual sound. Cakewalk IS the "special software". I simply use patch change MIDI messages and Bank changes to select which of its 200 or so sounds plays on a specific channel. then send notes to that specific channel. Exactly as one would do for TTS-1.

I use it as a replacement for TTS-1. Its not as featured as TTS-1, but I think the sounds are so much better than those on TTS-1. I use the two synths interchangeably. S-YXH50 also has chorus and reverb (just like TTS-1); i.e. effects. If Sysex was enabled to VSTi's, you could also send sysex data to modify the effects, and the sounds.

[Kurre]

@JohnKIt seems we are incompatible. I focus on the end result and you seem to fixate with Vsti midiout.

Good luck with your laborations. 👍

[JohnK]

18 minutes ago, Nigel Mackay said:

Can't get it to work either. Tried using Kontakt.  Also no joy.

Thats comforting to know its not just me being stupid. I will also assume that Kontact is 64b? The other niggle I had was that all my stuff was in 32b VSTi's.

However, all this talk has made me get more and more attached to how well the idea would solve my problem. The only negative is that I would need to add a dummy VSTi as the recipient of the MIDI data to send out to other channels; if it wasn't one of the recipients in the first place.

I need to find that post I read where someone specifically talked about MIDI out from a VSTi. Hopefully they can see what I am failing at.

[JohnK]

Just now, Kurre said:

@JohnKIt seems we are incompatible. I focus on the end result and you seem to fixate with Vsti midiout.

Good luck with your laborations. 👍

I can do the end result already, its the WAY i do it that I wish to change/improve.

[Nigel Mackay]

Just saw a comment in the documentation. If I record I can get it to work with Kontakt. But you have to have an instrument inserted in Kontakt for each channel you want to use.

Try recording.

[scook]

2 hours ago, Nigel Mackay said:

Can't get it to work either. Tried using Kontakt.  Also no joy.

I don't have Kontakt so can't offer plug-in specific advice but keep in mind input echo is needed when trying to monitor the data at a track's input.

[JohnK]

13 hours ago, Nigel Mackay said:

Can't get it to work either. Tried using Kontakt.  Also no joy.

I kinda had a break through, but still it didn't work.

As I have shown above, I have:

1. Been using old 32b VSTi's, that do appear to support MIDI Out

2. When I was using Hypersonic, I actually have an extra layer with jBridge, which may also have its on bug. I am in discussion with the dev right now, so I'll follow this up with him directly.

3. There may be a bug in the BitBridge for 32b VSTi;'s and MIDI out

So, I looked for a 64b plugin I had that supported MIDI out, and found "Ample Guitar M II Lite". The extra thing this VSTi had, was that in settings there was a specific switch to turn MIDI out ON! which by default was OFF. The other VSTi's did not have this setting; although I need to go back and check Hypersonic for sure.

I got a little excited, and did all the patching as before, but it did not work. HOWEVER, the breakthrough that has not happened before was that on the destination track, the "VU meter" started to bounce about showing it WAS receiving MIDI in. But did not actually play anything

Sheeeeze... I just tried playing the project I did last night (to get a screenshot), and it didn't behave the same. No VU Meter on the dest MIDI channel that It was getting late last night. So I tried with a 64b VSTi (TTS-1) as the dest, and then things then got REALLY weird! First the screen shot.

As you can see in the above screen shot, the source/creator/driver of the MIDI out is Ample Guitar, playing 3 notes in succession, and TTS-1 is the receiver. I have set the patch to Organ1, so it is clearly a different sound coming out. When I press play, the first two notes just play the guitar, HOWEVER the third note plays the Guitar AND the organ!!! What the .... 

I also found another old thread on this same topic, so I will see if I can get some answers there.

I keep going back and pressing the play button over and over again in total dis-belief and confoundment.

 

[JohnK]

Actually just realised, I had the MIDI on the Synth track of TTS-1. So moved the dest over to a an actual MIDI track, but the same fail occurred; ie only the last note played.

So I tried adding a few more notes, and now nothing plays, even when I returned to only the previous three notes where the last note DID play.

EDIT: actually it stopped, until I put it back on the Synth track for TTS-1, and when I added a forth note (after the third), it does not play

Scrap that, it appears it is related to the actual note played i.e. pitch. If it is E5 or above, it plays both, below and only Ample guitar plays. Which explains the three note example above. But even still, its flakey and randomly it stops working.

Edited August 29, 2020 by JohnK

[Nigel Mackay]

To save frustration you could use linked clips, put all the "extra" tracks in a track folder and hide the folder.

[JohnK]

On 8/29/2020 at 4:08 PM, Nigel Mackay said:

To save frustration you could use linked clips, put all the "extra" tracks in a track folder and hide the folder.

But that explicitly goes against what I am asking in the OP. I already know it works with linked clips, but i prefer to use another option, and was checking if there was one. The MIDI Out looked like the solution, but its not working as expected.

[Nigel Mackay]

I am well aware of that. I am also well aware that the only VST that I could make work with MIDI out is Kontakt. Which means that you can't do what you want to do. So i offered an alternative, the alternative being to hide all the linked clips - out of sight, out of mind.

[JohnK]

18 minutes ago, Nigel Mackay said:

I am well aware of that. I am also well aware that the only VST that I could make work with MIDI out is Kontakt. Which means that you can't do what you want to do. So i offered an alternative, the alternative being to hide all the linked clips - out of sight, out of mind.

Sorry if I appear ungrateful, it wasn't my intent.

With my OCD, I still know they are there. Additionally, hidden tracks are still visible in the console view.

[JohnK]

In regard to my post above, where I got it to kind-of work with Ample guitar. To remind people, it seemed to be dropping off notes based on a note cut-off point. I have determined what was going on there,

Ample Guitar, even though you set the MIDI out to channel 1, it actually sends the MIDI note data out to different MIDI channels, based on which string the note is played on. So on my destination track, I was listening specifically to the CH1 MIDI out of Ample guitar (the selected OUT channel), but it was really sending notes to Channel 1 AND Channel 2 depending on which string they were played on. As soon as I turned the MIDI in (on the destination track) to the OMNI of Ample guitar, all the notes played on the destination track.

However, I then tried adding another layer / synth, and the MIDI notes were ONLY sent to the destination track that had focus (i.e. selected / cursor / last mouse click). NOT to both! WT....

[Nigel Mackay]

You say E5 is the switch point. But that is the highest note the guitar will play according to the numbering on the onscreen keyboard. Possible problem?

I don't have the Lite model, so I don't know what you don't have. Do you have the button for Keyboard Mode, Standard Mode, Solo Mode. Keyboard Mode lets you play as many notes as you want simultaneously. Maybe that is what is causing the channel switching.

It is a pain that so many VSTs say they do MIDI Out, but it seems they don't. (Could be a bug, or specs problem.)

Maybe it is worth getting the free version of Kontakt and seeing if the MIDI is available on the free version. (You have to set it to send CCs and Notes on in Settings, but at least it stays on after that. Also, you need something laded into Kontakt for each MIDI channel you want to use, and that is starting to be as big a pain as linked clips. But all of them can be the same thing, so you can choose one with small CPU/Memory usage.)

[Nigel Mackay]

Experimented. Seems the Ample guitar decides to change MIDI channels below the top E string. Weird. Makes it unsuitable.

[JohnK]

42 minutes ago, Nigel Mackay said:

Experimented. Seems the Ample guitar decides to change MIDI channels below the top E string. Weird. Makes it unsuitable.

I only tested the  switch between the top and the second from the top string. I would assume, it goes for all the strings. i.e. each to their own MIDI channel. Which makes some sense, to enable the user to play a different sound for each string (as each string does sound different). To make it useful, I simply changed my MIDI in on the dest to OMNI, from Ample guitar, and all the MIDI channels are played by my dest.

 

But only if it has focus...

[Nigel Mackay]

I have full version. You can switch on MIDI Guitar and set the channel for each string. Set all to 1. Now all strings work except high E, which was originally ch1.

Send MIDI to guitar on any other channel and all strings work. Except there is no note-off.

A guitar that can do MIDI channel per string is no help.

I do not have one non-Kontakt VST that works. Even though they say they have MIDI out.

Edited September 1, 2020 by Nigel Mackay
More info

[JohnK]

1 hour ago, Nigel Mackay said:

I have full version. You can switch on MIDI Guitar and set the channel for each string. Set all to 1. Now all strings work except high E, which was originally ch1.

Send MIDI to guitar on any other channel and all strings work. Except there is no note-off.

A guitar that can do MIDI channel per string is no help.

I do not have one non-Kontakt VST that works. Even though they say they have MIDI out.

I was not interested in Ample Guitar either, but it was the first one I found that appeared to do midi out. Weird that I am getting a midi off, with just a channel for each string.Also weird your high E now does not work; this tech is flakey.

I went through one-by-one to test ALL my 64b (and a few 32b) VSTi's. Ample Guitar was the only one that sent MIDI out; at least that I could get working. A few of them had a setting for "MIDI Thru", but turning that on did nada. It was a simple menu item being checked, and seemed to be a default interface that a few shared, but all ignored.

I am currently in correspondence with the dev of jBridge on another matter, and mentioned/asked about MIDI out, and he said jBridge did it, and he is actually using it himself. I'll see if I can get any more info on that.

I also found an ooooold thread about the 32b VST interface (DirectXer) which I used back in the day; but its only 32b. And all those users said SONAR didn't do stuff from VSTi's except by using DirectXer.

its a long read, and its mostly about other things. I remember at the time, I was shocked Cakewalk/TwelveTone/SONAR went with the other VST Adapter.

http://forum.cakewalk.com/DirectiXer-VST-Adapter-issues-m552719.aspx