Question For Guitarists

[Matt Rayner]

If your friend's guitar plays more easily then you need to get a setup. You'll be amazed how much difference a properly cut nut and bridge can make to your playing and also the intonation. Shouldn't cost much. There are literally hundreds of YT vids showing how to do it.

Back to the barred chords. On an acoustic? Occasionally a Bm. Otherwise use your thumb!

Start with that C chord, using 4 fingers (string - fret - finger:) 2-1-1 , 4-2-2 , 5-3-4 , 6-3-3 Alright! Play that for a bit.

Now, keep your 1st finger where it is, and move the other 3 - in that exact same shape - to the 3 strings directly below where they now are. And stick your thumb on the first fret of the low e-string. Ta-da! An F. You can use that shape all up the neck and you'll never need a bar chord again. Just like Jimi Hendrix ?

[John Vere]

18 minutes ago, craigb said:

I've mainly played electrics (and don't like the necks of acoustics) for 50 years, and 90% of what I play are barre chords. ?

Which point to each individual will have a unique style. 
 

With out realizing it I ended up developing a way to play guitar on my own. I  had figured out using power chords when I was 9 years old. I could play any song I listened to using those on the bottom 4 strings. As I progressed band mates showed my cowboy chords. 

Because I sing I never look at my neck or fingers. No need to sit in the dark. Just use a mike.?

And other than power chords I never use full bar chords. I normally always have a bass player. I’ve tried the finger picking solo guitar thing and I suck at that style. 

Being a person who most of my life I played 50/50 acoustic and electric. But I never liked Dreadnought type acoustic guitars.
I seek out shorter scale and smaller body’s. I had a Yamaha APX 7 for like 20 years. Sounds boring unless you plug it in which is what I always do anyways. 

My latest is a Epiphone L00-studio. It has a pretty decent acoustic sound so big step up from the Yamaha. It has a smaller body and shorter scale Length. 
Short scale solves the tension issues with out compromising anything else.

I also use minimum of 52-11 gauge because lighter than that definitely looses tone. Other than bending notes a whole step I can play it like my electric. 

 

[Tim Smith]

4 hours ago, Matt Rayner said:

If your friend's guitar plays more easily then you need to get a setup. You'll be amazed how much difference a properly cut nut and bridge can make to your playing and also the intonation. Shouldn't cost much. There are literally hundreds of YT vids showing how to do it.

Back to the barred chords. On an acoustic? Occasionally a Bm. Otherwise use your thumb!

Start with that C chord, using 4 fingers (string - fret - finger:) 2-1-1 , 4-2-2 , 5-3-4 , 6-3-3 Alright! Play that for a bit.

Now, keep your 1st finger where it is, and move the other 3 - in that exact same shape - to the 3 strings directly below where they now are. And stick your thumb on the first fret of the low e-string. Ta-da! An F. You can use that shape all up the neck and you'll never need a bar chord again. Just like Jimi Hendrix ?

I got a price in a little guitar shop I came across in my travels of 65.00 for a setup. It was probably roughly set up at GC, I say probably. Maybe not.

I'll give this a try and thanks.

3 hours ago, John Vere said:

Being a person who most of my life I played 50/50 acoustic and electric. But I never liked Dreadnought type acoustic guitars.
I seek out shorter scale and smaller body’s. I had a Yamaha APX 7 for like 20 years. Sounds boring unless you plug it in which is what I always do anyways. 

My latest is a Epiphone L00-studio. It has a pretty decent acoustic sound so big step up from the Yamaha. It has a smaller body and shorter scale Length. 
Short scale solves the tension issues with out compromising anything else.

I also use minimum of 52-11 gauge because lighter than that definitely looses tone. Other than bending notes a whole step I can play it like my electric. 

This is why I bought my Martin several years ago because it didn't feel too big and it works well for less overt playing. Compared to my other acoustics it doesn't have near the projection, and that seems to be the tradeoff. Smaller body, less projection if playing it unplugged. It's great for light finger picking. 

I didn't notice how much of a difference it made until I played it and compared it to the Alvarez which is what I would call a small dreadnaught. I have the jumbo Epiphone Masterbuilt. It'is a well made guitar with wonderful tone, but for me it feels HUGE compared to the Martin which has a far smaller body. I don't tend to play it as much even though it's a better guitar. Anything I ever recorded with the Martin lacked umph.

I see the Alvarez as a compromise. It's slightly bigger than the Martin, but not as large as the Epiphone. They also put a bevel where your right arm rests which makes it a very comfortable guitar to play. I have pretty much gotten used to it now and don't notice that it's slightly smaller.

Edited March 15 by Tim Smith

[Shane_B.]

4 hours ago, Tim Smith said:

Anything I ever recorded with the Martin lacked umph.

They aren't really known for their fullness for lack of a better term. They are known for being bright.

That said, one of the best sounding Martin's I ever heard is their Made in Mexico 000. The MIM ones have the HPL sides and backs and it really adds a fullness I didn't hear in the US all wood ones.

I had the opportunity to play 7 or 8 lefty Martin's at a guitar shop in Des Moines one time. The best sounding one ended up being MIM 000 to my ears because it had a fuller sound than the others. IMO.

[Matt Rayner]

Tim, I've had Gibs.., umm, guitars in my hands costing thousands that were practically impossible to play and completely impossible to tune due to the nut being  higher than my doorstep.  True!

Setting up a guitar ain't too hard. It's a balancing act between your truss rod, the nut then the bridge. It's pretty simple to do once you've had it explained.  Having said that,  the bridge is easy on an electric (up or down), but not so much on an acoustic (down and...aargh! Too far down!) - so take it to someone who can do it. And, at the same time, ask them to fit a proper bone nut and bridge. You can get blanks of AliExpress for peanuts. It's also worth asking them to check if your frets are level. One or two invariably need a tap if they're a bit high.

[Matt Rayner]

Shane, my son's mate has a Mexican Martin. It has a cutaway, which I don't like, but man! That guitar sounds and plays great. Even the electrics are good.

[Tim Smith]

On 3/16/2024 at 1:34 AM, Matt Rayner said:

Tim, I've had Gibs.., umm, guitars in my hands costing thousands that were practically impossible to play and completely impossible to tune due to the nut being  higher than my doorstep.  True!

Setting up a guitar ain't too hard. It's a balancing act between your truss rod, the nut then the bridge. It's pretty simple to do once you've had it explained.  Having said that,  the bridge is easy on an electric (up or down), but not so much on an acoustic (down and...aargh! Too far down!) - so take it to someone who can do it. And, at the same time, ask them to fit a proper bone nut and bridge. You can get blanks of AliExpress for peanuts. It's also worth asking them to check if your frets are level. One or two invariably need a tap if they're a bit high.

Thanks Matt,

I have tweaked the truss rod on a few of my guitars. A friend of mine  showed me how to sight down the neck. My birthday was Saturday, and my wife was in a "get whatever you want" mood, so we ended up at guitar center and it's a big one compared to the one closer to me. It's the mega guitar center for the area.

I really wasn't planning to buy anything but a mic stand. But I always go to the guitars both electric and acoustic to check them out.

It was mostly run of the mill chinese guitars, but I did see a mitchel made of mahogany I liked, still low end but had a decent tone and setup. I was playing it but there was some kid in there playing too, and you know how it is for anyone who has ever been to a GC.  Then we seen another little glass room no one was in, so I went in there to play the Mitchell. I picked up a Martin X mahogany off the wall in that room and that guitar just sounded dead to me compared to the Mitchell which was significantly less expensive. My standard Martin X has better tone. Then I seen it, a used Taylor. Even used it was a 1500 dollar guitar and I told myself I'm just going to try it. Well nothing else even came close. Never heard body harmonics like that before, like music after the music! Compared to the Mitchell it had a more round tone. I would decribe the Mitchel as harsh in the highs.While the Alvarez sounded pretty good. Nothing like this guitar. 

I should mention setup was also excellent. Cons- no built in tuner. Output is ok direct. Weaker on my wireless. Ended up buying it and even made a recording with yesterday  using an AKG 4043a single guitar mic and my shure KSM 44a for vocals. I took an additional output from the guitar. Here are the results.

[Matt Rayner]

Bloody hell that's great! And what a super guitar sound you have.
Congrats mate.

Edit: What's that AKG mic? Can't find it on Google.

Edited March 20 by Matt Rayner
forgot to add HELL

[Tim Smith]

41 minutes ago, Matt Rayner said:

Bloody that's great! And what a super guitar sound you have.
Congrats mate.

Edit: What's that AKG mic? Can't find it on Google.

Thanks @Matt Rayner

Sorry, my mistake It's an Audio Technica 4043a. That mic is my general workhorse mic. 

The KSM 44 I would describe as less crisp which makes it work well for vocals.

The strings I used in that recording were pretty beat up and oxidized, so I ended up putting a  52,42,32,15,11

set on.  I can't tell that I lost any tone.

Not sure if I'll ever play great barr chords. I was playing the F holding the low string down with my thumb which works pretty well. I'll keep trying. The smaller guage helps with all fingerings. Not in a  big way, enough to notice.

 

[Tim Smith]

On 3/15/2024 at 8:01 PM, Shane_B. said:

They aren't really known for their fullness for lack of a better term. They are known for being bright.

That said, one of the best sounding Martin's I ever heard is their Made in Mexico 000. The MIM ones have the HPL sides and backs and it really adds a fullness I didn't hear in the US all wood ones.

I had the opportunity to play 7 or 8 lefty Martin's at a guitar shop in Des Moines one time. The best sounding one ended up being MIM 000 to my ears because it had a fuller sound than the others. IMO.

I'm not sure where the X models are made? Is that Mexico? As a guitar to just sit around noodling on it, I love it. THe Martin factory is not a terrible traveling distance from me. We were there once to take the tour, but the factory was closed at the time so no go. The Taylor definitely has more projection for sure.

I remember reading about the science of tuning a hand made violin. There's a lot involved in carving that back to resonate properly and you can tell the difference playing a hand made one and a factory made one.

Must be very similar for guitar. I noticed the Taylor has an intentional bulge on the back. None of my other guitars have that and it does make a difference in the sound.

Edited March 19 by Tim Smith

[Tim Smith]

OK I will do that but I'm not sure which list? 

[Matt Rayner]

Tim, do that C and F with your thumb and occasionally hammer on and off (hammer off?!) your 2nd finger on both chords. How many songs do you recognise ? ?‍?

[Tim Smith]

7 hours ago, Matt Rayner said:

Tim, do that C and F with your thumb and occasionally hammer on and off (hammer off?!) your 2nd finger on both chords. How many songs do you recognise ? ?‍?

Good point.

[Starship Krupa]

A lot of good advice here. I'll add my .02.

A big mistake I made when I was learning full barre chords was that I thought I had to treat my index finger like a capo, holding down all 6 strings. Obviously, once you think about it, you don't need to fret behind the strings that are already fretted by your other fingers. So for instance, with an E shape barre, you only really need to use your index on the low E and the high B and E. This lets you curve your index finger, which is much stronger than when it's flat. Using a bit of @Byron Dickens pulling back with your arm muscles becomes more effective, too. I'm now at the point where I can play without planting my thumb. Of course I do use my thumb, but my hand doesn't cramp up from having to use my finger muscles and wrist tendons to clamp so hard.

The other thing is, yes, take it to a pro and have it set up properly for your playing style. A good luthier will watch you play for a couple of minutes in order to see how hard you pick and strum. People who play harder need higher action, people with a light touch on the right hand can drop it lower. I'm not a basher, so my guitars are all light action.

I've found that nut height is often overlooked in favor of bridge height. A good test is to capo at the 1st fret. If the guitar becomes much easier to play, especially campfire chords, then your nut is higher than it needs to be. Make sure your setup person pays attention to this.

Last, the book that helped me the most in understanding guitar setup and repair was Dan Erlewine's. I recommend it for any guitarist, even those who don't want to do their own setups. Just understanding what's going on is valuable for communicating with your guitar tech. And there are some things, like setting intonation on an electric when you change string gauges, that IMO, every guitarist should know how to do anyway.

As mentioned by others in this topic, if a guitar sounds good it IS good, no matter how or where it was built and how much it cost. Case in point: an anonymous neighbor of mine dropped off a CHEAP old Asian-made classical on my porch, complete with musty-smelling gig bag. It's so cheap that the headstock decal is a foil sticker. The frets were actually pointy on top and serrated. The bridge is held on with a pair of wood screws whose pointy tips I can feel underneath. The kind of sub-beginner instrument that used to put people off from learning guitar.

But it actually sounded okay, so I leveled and polished the frets, put on a set of really nice tuners that a friend had laying around, took the bridge down, and it's an amazing guitar. Stays in tune, doesn't have the cardboard box tone you'd expect, records really well, being a gut string, it's easier to play than my steel strings.

And rescue guitars are like rescue doggies: they return the love and are eager to please. If you think I'm kidding about that, I am not at all. I grew up reading Chitty-Chitty Bang-Bang and watching The Love Bug, and have experienced it enough times to know that it's for real.

My favorite electric is a Squier Affinity Telecaster (absolute bottom of the line) that when I bought it for $15, was literally in pieces. Some dip5hit had obviously tried to smash it on stage, but y'know, if you try to smash a Tele on stage, what you end up with is a stage with holes in it. The neck and bridge and control plate had all been taken off the body and the bridge pickup was dead. Tuners were missing. Multiple chunks of the thick poly finish missing from the edges.

I put it back together,  put some Schallers on it that I had laying around, a Mighty-Mite AlNiCo in the bridge, laid some Krazy Glue in the edge dings to smooth them out, and good lord. I'm not lying, I have at least four friends (I've lost track of the actual number, to tell the truth) who have told me "if you ever want to get rid of that guitar, tell me immediately." And they are all guys who are into really nice US-made vintage guitars. When people pick it up and play it, they get this look in their eyes....

[Pragi]

Very nice guitar sound and singing .

On 3/18/2024 at 3:21 PM, Tim Smith said:

Here are the results.

That sounds very good, man....

[Matt Rayner]

Quote

I grew up reading Chitty-Chitty Bang-Bang and watching The Love Bug

Remember about 40 years ago, we would say - Yahh.., I just read Naked Lunch. Burroughs was the original Beat, forget Kerouac.

The truth is much funnier in our old age.

[Tim Smith]

13 hours ago, Starship Krupa said:

A lot of good advice here. I'll add my .02.

A big mistake I made when I was learning full barre chords was that I thought I had to treat my index finger like a capo, holding down all 6 strings. Obviously, once you think about it, you don't need to fret behind the strings that are already fretted by your other fingers. So for instance, with an E shape barre, you only really need to use your index on the low E and the high B and E. This lets you curve your index finger, which is much stronger than when it's flat. Using a bit of @Byron Dickens pulling back with your arm muscles becomes more effective, too. I'm now at the point where I can play without planting my thumb. Of course I do use my thumb, but my hand doesn't cramp up from having to use my finger muscles and wrist tendons to clamp so hard.

The other thing is, yes, take it to a pro and have it set up properly for your playing style. A good luthier will watch you play for a couple of minutes in order to see how hard you pick and strum. People who play harder need higher action, people with a light touch on the right hand can drop it lower. I'm not a basher, so my guitars are all light action.

I've found that nut height is often overlooked in favor of bridge height. A good test is to capo at the 1st fret. If the guitar becomes much easier to play, especially campfire chords, then your nut is higher than it needs to be. Make sure your setup person pays attention to this.

Last, the book that helped me the most in understanding guitar setup and repair was Dan Erlewine's. I recommend it for any guitarist, even those who don't want to do their own setups. Just understanding what's going on is valuable for communicating with your guitar tech. And there are some things, like setting intonation on an electric when you change string gauges, that IMO, every guitarist should know how to do anyway.

As mentioned by others in this topic, if a guitar sounds good it IS good, no matter how or where it was built and how much it cost. Case in point: an anonymous neighbor of mine dropped off a CHEAP old Asian-made classical on my porch, complete with musty-smelling gig bag. It's so cheap that the headstock decal is a foil sticker. The frets were actually pointy on top and serrated. The bridge is held on with a pair of wood screws whose pointy tips I can feel underneath. The kind of sub-beginner instrument that used to put people off from learning guitar.

But it actually sounded okay, so I leveled and polished the frets, put on a set of really nice tuners that a friend had laying around, took the bridge down, and it's an amazing guitar. Stays in tune, doesn't have the cardboard box tone you'd expect, records really well, being a gut string, it's easier to play than my steel strings.

And rescue guitars are like rescue doggies: they return the love and are eager to please. If you think I'm kidding about that, I am not at all. I grew up reading Chitty-Chitty Bang-Bang and watching The Love Bug, and have experienced it enough times to know that it's for real.

My favorite electric is a Squier Affinity Telecaster (absolute bottom of the line) that when I bought it for $15, was literally in pieces. Some dip5hit had obviously tried to smash it on stage, but y'know, if you try to smash a Tele on stage, what you end up with is a stage with holes in it. The neck and bridge and control plate had all been taken off the body and the bridge pickup was dead. Tuners were missing. Multiple chunks of the thick poly finish missing from the edges.

I put it back together,  put some Schallers on it that I had laying around, a Mighty-Mite AlNiCo in the bridge, laid some Krazy Glue in the edge dings to smooth them out, and good lord. I'm not lying, I have at least four friends (I've lost track of the actual number, to tell the truth) who have told me "if you ever want to get rid of that guitar, tell me immediately." And they are all guys who are into really nice US-made vintage guitars. When people pick it up and play it, they get this look in their eyes....

What do you have to do in order to get someone to lay free guitars on your porch?   Really I guess a Squire is a decent body with usually cheaper made hardware on it. Which means it won't tend to stay in tune as well. Not sure what a set of tuners go for?  Electrics seem to maintain a decent setup better than acoustics. You seem to know your way around guitar maintenance and the ideal guy for that guitar. That neighbor was wise to drop it there.

I'm to the point where I have my old Martin X as the tune tester in my studio and my other guitars are mostly in cases. If I get something , the plan is to pull out one of the better ones for tracking, but that Martin has seen a fair share of recordings. People try to EQ the bass off a guitar. With that Martin it mostly isn't needed. I have this old Laguna HSS people here probably remember me bragging about it when I bought it, and to me then it was wonderful. Even today aside from the cheap tuners it rocks going through the right setup. I see them going for a little of nothing online. You playing that guitar probably had a lot to do with how good it sounded.

4 hours ago, Pragi said:

Very nice guitar sound and singing .

That sounds very good, man....

Thanks!  No rocket science involved there

[Starship Krupa]

On 3/25/2024 at 12:52 PM, Tim Smith said:

What do you have to do in order to get someone to lay free guitars on your porch?   Really I guess a Squire is a decent body with usually cheaper made hardware on it. Which means it won't tend to stay in tune as well. Not sure what a set of tuners go for?  Electrics seem to maintain a decent setup better than acoustics. You seem to know your way around guitar maintenance and the ideal guy for that guitar. That neighbor was wise to drop it there.

Become known in the neighborhood as a person who's interested in fixing up old instruments!

One time, my neighbor across the street had about 3/4 of an old CB700 drum kit out on his lawn, ready to be dumpstered. He knocked on my door and asked if I wanted to haul it off instead.

No snare, one really ratty cymbal stand, no kick pedal, no throne, but it had a bee-yootiful Rogers "Big R" hi hat stand (same model Bonham preferred).

Not knowing anything about putting together a drum kit, I figured I'd fix it up and donate it to a school or something.

Another neighbor donated an ancient Japanese marching snare. I started setting it up, got various parts from a local used instrument store and Craig's List, some Zildijian ZBT cymbals....and started playing it. Got completely and thoroughly hooked on playing drums. Cut new bearing edges, rewrapped the shells....

Fixing up that kit turned me into a drummer! It's now my favorite instrument. I later got a sweet vintage Slingerland set on Craig's List and fixed that up as well.

Kept the CB's as a gigging kit, but gave it to a friend a few months ago in preparation for moving. It's found a good home in his studio and will never see a dumpster.

[aidan o driscoll]

@Tim Smith Hi Tim. RUSH fan here

I say that as the Rush guitarist Alex lifeson ( Classically trained ) uses a sort of major chord "Cheat" inversion up and down the neck for barred chords like F etc. I learned this from an Iron maiden & Camel session guitarist back in the day.  It looks like this:

So You can bar just the A D G B string with 2nd finger ( thumb is first  in my language ), then use 4th 5th finger to hold down G string at the 5th fret and B string at 6th fret. This cheat also helps your finger stretch with a bit of practice. Dont need to play the two outer E strings.  

Slid this up and down the fret board to get F F# G etc etc.

Edited March 29 by aidan o driscoll

[craigb]

There's also the Caged system.  I had a book and video on it once.  Here's a YouBoob search for some examples (I haven't watched any so I can't recommend one over the other):

 

Caged system explained