Guitar Inlays?

[mettelus]

For the past year I have been pondering how best to do a custom inlay. To get a machined fit requires excessive time (and precision), so I pondered permanent vinyl for a bit (easiest), but want the inlay effect. It wasn't until a few days ago that it occured to me that an inlay doesn't need to be hard until it is complete, so started to look at liquid options. Lo and behold, mica powder (either opaque or semi-transparent) is used in a truckload of crafts with clear epoxy (some of which are downright gorgeous), but not many hits out there for guitar inlays. Inlays with gaps around them bother me, so a liquid solution would solve that since only the edge of the wood will matter. I just ordered some opaque mica powder, expoxy and fine carving tools to give this a go but was curious if anyone had seen this done before?

I have had a hankering for carving a guitar over the past several years, so this side project may explode in scope.

 

[Bapu]

33 minutes ago, mettelus said:

 

I have had a hankering for carving a guitar over the past several years, so this side project may explode in scope.

 

I hope the guitar doesn't explode ? 

[mettelus]

You'll appreciate this. The very first crude search I did (forget the exact terms used now) returned two different Alembics with custom inlays on them.

That search quest left me baffled in a way, because there are videos from StewMac showing how to epoxy fill the GAPS around an inlay, but not doing the inlay with epoxy. Both the inlay and pockets in that video were done with a CNC machine (can't get more precise than that), yet it still had the edge gaps I do not like. Another big difference with epoxy is adding vibrant color via the mica powder rather than just variations of white.

The mica powder and carving tools came already, but the epoxy will take a couple of weeks. I can get test carvings done at least in the mean time at least. 

[Max Arwood]

5 hours ago, mettelus said:

Both the inlay and pockets in that video were done with a CNC machine (can't get more precise than that),

Well yes you can. I’m a jeweler/musician. There are laser engravers that will run circles around a cnc. The only problem is taking a micro scraper to clean the burnt wood up a bit. The cnc is much better at that part because you can take a paint brush and some compressed air and have it prepped in no time. I have always wanted to experiment with that a bit. I did some silver inlays on a small table top (practicing preparation for attempting the guitar)

I’d love to see what you end up doing. 

[mettelus]

Good point! I have only seen lasers used in precision manufacturing for electronics, so never really thought of that. The StewMac video I saw was sort of depressing to see since the gaps between the inlays and the fretboard were big enough that Dale actually used a fretboard shaving to fill one of them.

The mica powder is recommended to use 5g per gallon or so of epoxy, and even the starter kit I got is 240g (24 colors). Pretty much any flat surface is easily doable since it self levels... not sure if a fretboard would be as easy, but the epoxy will overfill without running onto a dry surface, so can sand that down. So many videos of tables and countertops being done. I have an antique butcher block that saw a lot of use (nice big 1" deep cleaver crater on one side), plus the previous owner got stains on it. I always wanted to redo that so now thinking epoxy will not only fill it but make the top perfectly level (and is good for cutting surfaces too). This will be interesting to play with once the epoxy gets here.

[mettelus]

This is really a followup to the last post on this thread, but that is in the Deals section and I don't want to bump that up since it isn't an applicable deal. I took what @Max Arwood said to heart after my last post in this thread, so researched laser engravers and saw a few that were suitable, then blew them off for the time being. Ironically, during the first Amazon Prime Day in July I got some screwy pop-up with 3 hours left in the sale (that some of those engravers went on sale) so I grabbed an xTool D1 Pro 10W (was less than $400 then, so I grabbed the middle model). I was restoring two vehicles this summer so left it set on a table I walked by every day, but still blew it off. The return on that long since expired when I opened it (glad it was actually a new one when I did!), then set about the task at hand... finishing that head stock on that guitar...

First, things that I like and don't about the laser engraver itself:

1. Repeatable precision is perfect (for multiple passes), but the initial alignment  sucks (so I backed off the idea of redoing anything once removed until I noodle that one out). The repeatable precision I could leverage, but the alignment required some trickery and doing things "by eye" in a few cases.
2. Is Wi-Fi capable, so can leave it in another room.
3. Absolute HATE.... NO MANUAL (of any use) for it! WTF?? Fortunately I have worked with a lot of lasers, so I just went to town dry running my thoughts and leveraged ideas with what the machine can actually do. Even videos for the machine were often by people who came across as unknowledgeable.
4. The power, speed, and resolution are independent for each object. With repeatable precision, this was totally usable, but after I watched numerous people burn the crap out of things, I realized few know how to generate any art. Control of those settings with repeatability will allow for very detailed pictures (greyscale) to be done.
5. The engraver itself accepts png files, and works with layers, so can add a guide object of the piece to work too (I was dealing with both the edge of the head stock as well as making the picture miss the tuner washers).

Lessons learned for this specifically:

1. The epoxy idea itself was a fail, since epoxy is translucent and the depths are so shallow (thinner than a layer of paint in some cases). Paint is by far a better choice (although I did not go this route), because it is opaque and you can put a protective layer on the surface of the entire piece, overfill the engraving, then sand it back smooth.
2. I was meticulous on doing both the logo and picture to work to the actual head stock, then looked up head stock veneer (perfectly square!) and can get 5 for $10. I laughed when I saw those... in hind sight that would have made the job far easier (and less stressful!). I never liked the grain on the head stock anyway, but did a little more trickery to get around that as I worked.

Regardless, I worked to the actual head stock and this is the final result. Even though I "could" redo this to perfection with a veneer blank in the future, I tend to appreciate the flaws in things that make them truly unique.

I think @DeeringAmps mentioned the high top/low bottom strings late last year. I had bought a 10-pack back then, so this job also let me put a 1/4 turn relief on the truss rod and install a set (rather nice bottom end to them, I must say!).

Also, @Grem... we need an update on your guitar project!

Edited November 26, 2023 by mettelus

[DeeringAmps]

2 hours ago, mettelus said:

tend to appreciate the flaws in things

I don’t see any flaws in the pic. 
Nice!

t

[mettelus]

1 hour ago, DeeringAmps said:

I don’t see any flaws in the pic. 
Nice!

t

Thank you!

The issue is rather slight, but it was a lesson learned. Another reason epoxy is a bad choice is that the carbon from the laser work chemically reacts with it (dramatically accelerating cure time and creating bubbles as it does)... unfortunately the only way to pop those bubbles are to apply heat (not good for this situation), or spray (isopropyl) alcohol on it (which I didn't even think to prepare). There are very minute pits on the left edge of the image from this (the bright dots in the picture), which even new epoxy won't stick to. After realizing that was going to be baked into the product, I just went ahead and refinished the wood face. You have to either nose in or catch the reflection to notice the pits, but they are there nonetheless.

[Grem]

4 hours ago, mettelus said:

we need an update on your guitar project!

Funny you are talking about this Mettellus. I am in the process this weekend of putting the thing together. Got the neck on, all the holes drilled to put pickguard, spring plate, and jack in.  Just put the tuners on and lined them up, just need to drill the holes for them and put the screws in, solder the two wires to the jack and the one ground wire, screw it all together, string it up and take a pic!!

I just set the pickguard and jackplate in place and snapped this pic. So this is close to what it will look like. 

Edited November 26, 2023 by Grem

[Grem]

3 hours ago, DeeringAmps said:

I don’t see any flaws in the pic. 
Nice!

t

I would have to agree!!! We know you can see flaws, but we don't!!

[mettelus]

2 hours ago, Grem said:

I am in the process this weekend of putting the thing together. Got the neck on, all the holes drilled to put pickguard, spring plate, and jack in.  Just put the tuners on and lined them up, just need to drill the holes for them and put the screws in, solder the two wires to the jack and the one ground wire, screw it all together, string it up and take a pic!!

Looking REAL good! How many coats of Tru Oil did you end up using? I am eager to see the end result! I remember when you were worrying about all of the hurdles with a kit build, but you got passed that! ?It is amazing how much more valuable/precious things are when you put work into them.

2 hours ago, Grem said:

We know you can see flaws, but we don't!!

Yeah, I have to remind myself of that reality fairly often. We are always our own worst critics, usually because we know all of the details no one else would even notice half the time.

[Max Arwood]

Man, you guitar guys have it made. I just can't figure out where to engrave my Motif. I guess I could just carve little letters in the keys, so I could find which notes to play lol.

Wow, that lettering is good, but that cat is great. Bitmaps are tricky with a laser. I have used CorelDRAW for years for this stuff, and I know how tricky bitmaps can be. Did you use the software that came with the laser, or other graphic program?

Oh yes, when you get ready for that diamond to put in the cat's eye, just let me know. I probably have a few, lying around, you could have. I could probably find some stone that would be the color to match the actual color. Just let me know millimeters size you need.

[Grem]

8 hours ago, mettelus said:

How many coats of Tru Oil did you end up using? I am eager to see the end result! I remember when you were worrying about all of the hurdles with a kit build, but you got passed that! ?It is amazing how much more valuable/precious things are when you put work into them.

I quit counting after ten! It has at least 18 -20. I just worked on the body first. Sanding and sanding, I actually took a wood rasp to the top bout because I wanted it more thin like my G&L. Once I did that it took a few rounds of sanding, rasping, to get it where I wanted it.

The wood was too light in color and I wanted it to be darker, so I got some stain  When I applied the Tru Oil I would let it dry at least a day or more before I would sand again, first with 200 then worked up to 0000 steelwool. So it has some deep grain look to it that doesn't show much in the pic. That top right bout in the pic is washed out, but it has a "moving" quality to it. I used some dark stain on it before I started with the Tru Oil. Dark Walnut (semi-transparent). I put it on and wiped it right off. Didn't leave it on there long at all. Then I started the sanding again until I got it to how it is now. 

Anyway, I really am enjoying this build and would encourage anyone thinking about doing it, Stewmac has the kits on sale right now. For under $200 you can get something really nice and depending on what effort you pour into it... can turn into something that means a whole lot to you.

Will be putting strings on it later today. Will let ya'll know how it sounds.

[mettelus]

10 hours ago, Max Arwood said:

Wow, that lettering is good, but that cat is great. Bitmaps are tricky with a laser. I have used CorelDRAW for years for this stuff, and I know how tricky bitmaps can be. Did you use the software that came with the laser, or other graphic program?

The software that comes with the laser is pretty rudimentary, and although it will use layers, it is incredibly clunky so cannot edit well in it at all. I used Corel's PaintShop Pro 2023 (from the recent HumbleBundle) to do the layers. The base layer was actually a scan of a template I made of the head stock itself and scanned it in. This allowed the apples to apples scan size/print size to be accurate. I actually mounted that base template to the head stock (was just a manila folder) so I could trace the washers as well. Then each layer I added in PaintShop was adjusted to use the available space. The laser wants to swing the entire area (whether there is content or not) for framing, so I had to crop the entire project in PaintShop so the laser head wouldn't hit the nut (the head is about 1.5" square), then exported each layer as its own png file. The laser itself uses relative reference to the initial placement on the workspace, so is simple to import all png files perfectly aligned to the upper left corner of the workspace so that they all mate perfectly.

I actually made 7 passes on the picture. I first had to get through the original finish; but then using low power didn't get the contrast I wanted, so I edited that png to get a high contrast version and ran that to get the black (was so high contrast that only the black was done in that pass). As long as the piece is never moved, this will get exact placement on repeats. I considered that the most important feature of the laser, the 100% repeatability on passes.

The real funny thing for me is that I had been working on that logo a while (over months) to get it as good as possible (and kept making it bigger and increasing dpi as I did), but when I looked at the actual print size it was 10" wide!! I was trying to get it "pixel perfect" but once I resized it to actual print size it was more than fine.

I have been noodling initial placement options for the laser, and it seems the best path may be to use a thinner paper (tracing paper) on the piece and use a layer with the laser that has only 4 dots at the corners to check alignment. The power can be set low enough to just score the paper to check the alignment to the piece. Unfortunately the head stock has no corners, but a 6 dot reference to the center points of the tuning peg holes might have done the trick. The "Framing" option with the laser uses a crosshair which can be off by a couple mils just due to its width, and when it cycles the work area, it goes so fast through the other three corners that you cannot really determine placement. If it actually prints dots as it goes, that makes the task easier. While this unto itself may not be earth-shattering, it would create a "shadow copy" effect of +/- a few mils.

Edited November 26, 2023 by mettelus

[mettelus]

1 hour ago, Grem said:

I quit counting after ten! It has at least 18 -20. I just worked on the body first. Sanding and sanding, I actually took a wood rasp to the top bout because I wanted it more thin like my G&L. Once I did that it took a few rounds of sanding, rasping, to get it where I wanted it.

The wood was too light in color and I wanted it to be darker, so I got some stain  When I applied the Tru Oil I would let it dry at least a day or more before I would sand again, first with 200 then worked up to 0000 steelwool. So it has some deep grain look to it that doesn't show much in the pic. That top right bout in the pic is washed out, but it has a "moving" quality to it. I used some dark stain on it before I started with the Tru Oil. Dark Walnut (semi-transparent). I put it on and wiped it right off. Didn't leave it on there long at all. Then I started the sanding again until I got it to how it is now. 

Anyway, I really am enjoying this build and would encourage anyone thinking about doing it, Stewmac has the kits on sale right now. For under $200 you can get something really nice and depending on what effort you pour into it... can turn into something that means a whole lot to you.

Will be putting strings on it later today. Will let ya'll know how it sounds.

Pretty awesome! I tend to get antsy to play things, so my main has about 20 coats on the face, but only 6 on the back and 2 on the edges! That was over a decade ago and I was thinking, "Meh, I can always add more to those areas easily later" but never felt a need to. I have noticed that kits are cheaper in different places, but I would highly recommend StewMac for a couple reasons if anyone tries out a kit... 1) they inspect it and rate the vendors they use accordingly, and 2) if there is a flawed part they replace it for free. StewMac has a reputation to uphold, the vendors often do not.

I have to admit the kit was a surprisingly fun buy for me. "Tigger" tends to be the guitar I grab first... I never cared about having a LP, but figured the kit would give me one, and since I made it from scratch it is easily the second most favorite for me now. Even after stints of playing it and thinking, "I REALLY like this a LOT," I pick up my main that I did all of the mechanical/electrical work on (has also been PLEK'd) and suddenly feel like I am playing the epitome of what a guitar should be.

Now with the laser I am starting to get those thoughts of engraving my main, although I swore I would never tear it apart again (all of the solder connections are actually shrink wrapped in it)... can wait on that one anyway... it is like getting a tattoo... can only do it once, so it better be GOOD. People also tend to swipe things that are pretty/shiny, and no one would think to steal it "as is" because it looks as mundane as you can get.

[Grem]

44 minutes ago, mettelus said:

20 coats on the face, but only 6 on the back and 2 on the edges!

I almost went that route. But I promised myself I wouldn't skimp or take any BS shortcuts. If you remember, this was also about me learning to take my time and not fall prey to my inability to have patience. I may have taken it a bit too far in the other direction... which is human nature!! But I am about to string it up here shortly.

I think I may have started in April. I did a lot of work on the neck too. Learning to dress those frets. That was the biggie. But getting the back of the neck to feel the way I wanted it to feel was a chore. I wanted to seal it well with the Tru Oil, and I wanted it to feel silky smooth. Well that takes a lot of coats and a LOT of sanding with 000 and 0000 steel wool. But it feels silky smooth!! Want to feel how it's gonna play.

[Grem]

@mettelus Well I got it together. Plugged it in and took it for a spin. Now I see why I paid $188 for it!

That tremolo bridge needs to be replaced. Will it do? Yes. But I am use to something much better.

The nut on the neck isn't slotted well at all. The slot drops down towards the fretboard making most of the strings sound like they are being palm muted, or has a ringing like a Ring Modulator. And it's aggravating. 

Not to mention that there are quite a few dead spots on the neck. But I expected that.

So I got some more work to do on it.

Here is the thing all put together:

Edited November 27, 2023 by Grem

[mettelus]

Hey @Grem,

The final action setup requires several iterations of loosening/tightening the strings (to get access to the nut/frets), so be gentle with cycling them on the tuners. Mine came with cheap 9s and the high E finally gave out just as I was finishing things up, then I put a real set of 10s on it to finish the job.

1. Start with the neck perfectly straight (no relief for the first setup parts), this will allow you to adjust the nut, then bridge, and also allow you to see if any touchup fret dressing is required as you go.
2. With the neck straight (before you strung it), if that nut is slotted improperly, too low, or the wrong radius, you will need to replace it. Mine was plastic and too high but slotted properly, so I actually kept it and adjusted the height on it. A pre-slotted bone replacement nut would be the ideal choice to fix that if you have no confidence in the nut on it now (be sure the radius matches the board). You will still need to adjust height on a new nut (and I would also check the distance from the first fret the the nut edge when out just to make sure). You want the height of each string at the bridge to be "close" to final before replacing the nut and setting height. I put a quick write up how to file down the new nut in my other thread (is actually shaving off the bottom edge of the nut), but can walk you through this in a Zoom call as well if you want (is actually easier than typing). Any removal of superglue from the old nut, be sure to put protective tape on the side you are not addressing (either the head stock, or fret board end) so that you just make it smooth without gouging the other while working.
3. Once the nut issue is addressed, that gives you the proper "pivot point" for all of the strings at the nut to address the bridge. I am not sure what is specifically wrong with yours(?), but mine was pot metal, and I only needed to adjust it a few times before the stress started showing (plus I wanted rollers versus knife edges on the bridge). As long as you can adjust each string for height and intonation (and the springs are good), yours may be usable but is definitely your call. During this phase you want to do height/intonation, then play the board to find fret buzzes (every note on every string). I ended up doing a final fret dress during this phase (very gently with a block and 600 grit sandpaper), unstrung (well, no tension), and with the neck still perfectly straight unstrung. That will never be quite perfect, but you want as little as possible fret buzz and are particularly keen on if a fret above where you are playing actually frets above where your finger is. Final tension can test with roughly 1/4 turn relief on the truss rod for 10s (or about 1/2 turn for 9s)... from there you should have zero buzz at all and can make final height/intonation corrections. In my case this is where my high E said, "I am not playing your game anymore," and quit, so I put a set of 10s on it.

Before addressing the bridge, definitely resolve the nut issue first (and this will also let you properly assess the bridge). Again, if that nut is slotted improperly, too low, or the wrong radius, I would start with ordering a replacement bone nut and can walk you through that step when you get it if you want. Even with mine, the nut was way wrong (but usable), and my bridge was pot metal, so I find neither of those issues with yours surprising.

Edited November 27, 2023 by mettelus

[mettelus]

Quick follow up... that nut is actually in a slot (glued on 3 edges) versus mine which can just be knocked off the end of the fret board. This guy does a quick walk through of knocking that out in the first 40 seconds, but be SURE to score the edges of where the glue and nut meet first (he does mention this after he knocks it out!). Superglue sheers very easily, and will default to the weakest point (why scoring the glue is important).

You may get lucky with a replacement nut like he did, but check that slot to see if the lower edge is square or curved (why the replacement nut he got has a tab on the bottom middle, for a square groove). You might want to verify that groove before ordering a new one. Verifying the nut height is a series of checking the nut (unglued) versus the two E strings under tension to the first fret until it is verified, then glue it in (not sure why he glued it in before checking height... the height at the first fret is most critical here). Tusq nuts are also good alternatives for replacement as they are graphite and self-lubricating.

 

Edited November 27, 2023 by mettelus

[Grem]

Wow mettelus!! Great info! I was in the shower this morning thinking about what to do next. 

I forgot to say in my other post that in spite of the flaws that I found, the neck has plenty of potential! 

I will replace that nut, the bridge, and probably the pups too.

Bridge is just not acting right. The springs are weak, the Allen screws are sharp at the top when the stick out, and when I try to adjust the height they slide! Not sure what that's about. LOL!!

Thanks again mettelus.  We can do a zoom meeting so we can talk and bs about this!!