Is Cakewalk the best free DAW on the market

[kzmaier]

IMHO - Yep!

[Craig Anderton]

Just a few quick comments.

Cakewalk was in fact losing money regularly with Roland and later with Gibson, except for a brief period of time (IIRC around when X3 came out). It always seemed like some level of success would be "just around the corner," but it never happened. The only influence the bankruptcy had was that if Gibson had been rolling in money, Henry might have kept Cakewalk going even though it was losing money, because he liked the program. But under any other circumstances, the financial performance had become increasingly unsustainable, especially when the competition started to include Reaper (essentially free), Audacity, FL Studio, etc.  

As to Ableton being overpriced, there are several tiers for the program - a free lite version, the $99 Intro version, and the $449 Standard version whose price is comparable to other programs ($100 less than Cubase, $50 more than Studio One, $30 less than Samplitude Pro, etc.). The Suite version is loaded with stuff that people may or may not need, and they can choose to pay the extra or not. (Also remember that Ableton is basically a two-product company. If they want to stay afloat, they have to get all the income from Live and Push.)

Komplete is done the same way - if you really want EVERYTHING, then you pay $1,599 for the Ultimate version but the $599 version does what most people want. PreSonus Sphere is conceptually similar. If you're a newbie and don't have sample libraries and other extras, it's an inexpensive way to build your studio. But if all you need is Studio One, then you just get Studio One.

The bottom line is there are plenty of choices at plenty of price points, and different programs have different strengths. Cakewalk need make no apologies, it's a comprehensive program that is free yet continues to be developed. I do wish BandLab would start selling add-ons, like some of the plug-ins and instruments that came with Platinum, but I suspect they have bigger fish to fry at the moment.

There are some things Cakewalk does better than other programs and some things it doesn't do as well as other programs...just like every DAW, right?

[Bapu]

30 minutes ago, Craig Anderton said:

There are some things Cakewalk does better than other programs and some things it doesn't do as well as other programs...just like every DAW, right?

^^ this ^^

[Maestro]

On 10/16/2020 at 8:00 AM, Teegarden said:

1. You gave me the impression ("Free things usually garner few complaints", etc.) that in expensive DAWs more bugs are ironed out. My bad if misinterpreted your comments. The bugs in free are more acceptable in general, but not if you paid a lot for the DAW like Sonar users that continue to use CbB. And don't forget that there are several professional musicians and studios here on the forum. They can't afford to keep using a DAW that hampers their production...
   There are several users on the forum that use CbB next to other expensive DAWs. They prefer some things in one DAW and other things in another. I guess if you have Pro Tools, Cubase and are using CbB regularly or (as I understood form several most of the time) next to it it must be of comparable quality

I use Cakewalk on my Laptop for sketching out ideas on the go when I don't feel like carrying around my Cubase Pro dongle with me, which has several software licenses on it (Cubase Pro, WaveLab Pro, Groove Agent 5, and some VST Sound Libraries... basically a $1,500 dongle that I odn't want to have to risk breaking/losing/having stolen/etc. every time I need to leave my home studio and use my laptop).  Since I do most things in MIDI, this is trivially portable between DAWs.

Cakewalk makes perfect sense as a backup, in my case.  I'm certainly not going to use something like REAPER, given how atrocious the UI and UX is in that DAW (personal opinion).

Also, DAWs like Cubase pretty much need ASIO for optimal performance.  For just sketching out MIDI compositions, I like having a "portable DAW" with great WASAPI support on Windows (Generic Drivers are 16-Bit only for Steinberg, and ASIO4ALL is pretty janky and locks our audio drivers unconfigurably).  I don't want to have to carry around an Audio Interface, as well.

Lastly, some people don't have to luxury of choosing what they can afford.  A $560-750 DAW is completely off the table for them.  If they don't already own another supported commercial DAW, they may not even be able to utilize crossgrade options to DAWs like Cubase, Studio One, and others.

On Windows, Cakewalk is the best option in the lower end of the price bracket.  I don't even think that is  debatable, personally.  But if you can afford better, things get really competitive once you get to the  ~$100 cost tier (Studio One 5 Artist, REAPER (if you can stand to use it)).

Unless a DAW is shipping with content like Logic Pro X, I don't generally buy based on bundled content.  You can get SampleTank or  Komplete during sales for fairly decent prices and that will cover all of your bread and butter sounds.

On 10/16/2020 at 8:00 AM, Teegarden said:

1.   
2. See here above. Most Sonar oldies would leave if CbB if it were not up to the task. And people spend many hours to produce a piece of music that they are emotionally attached to. Nothing is more discouraging and frustrating than to see it fall apart because of time consuming bugs along the way or a crash just before finishing the master. Because of that I think that especially with something like a DAW most users will not stick to it if it does not operate well, even when being free

 

I don't expect anyone to drop a solution that works for them and PAY for another solution.  That's illogical. If they can deal with the quirks of the software - and all software has quirks - then I don't see any issue in them staying there.  That's the intelligent thing to do.  Responsible professionals do not DAW hop.  That's a waste of money and a productivity drain.

I've stated the reasons why I use two DAWs (purely for convenience reasons).  I could easily buy Cubase Elements for like $99 and that would probably work for what I use my Laptop for, but why pay $99 when I can just use Cakewalk and export MIDI clips that work flawlessly in Cubase?

On 10/16/2020 at 8:00 AM, Teegarden said:

1.  
2.  
3. You mis the point: I merely pointed out that since CbB is free, the DAW is even much better and better maintained and upgraded than it was at the time of being an expensive DAW, that paying a lot for a DAW can still lead to failure and that (at least in my case) this free DAW is much better than the paid ones in the past. And yes, I'm very critical regarding workflow, options, bugs etc. just like I was when I paid top dollar. If the DAW doesn't fits my needs, I'll leave it for another (paid or free, I don't care as long as it can do what I need it to do)

 

I don't miss the point.  I think I've been pretty clear that I think they are doing better under BandLab than under Gibson, where the focus was mostly on adding content bundles and marketing that.  I've stated this here, as well as on Reddit.  I've been pretty good at recommending Cakewalk on KVR, VI-Control, r/MusicProduction and r/EDMProduction - and I ALWAYS make sure to mention that the DAW gets really good active support from the developers; both bug fixes and new features.

People do not care how Cakewalk compares to Cubase 5.  They do care how it compares to REAPER 6 or whatever else they're considering.

I think for most producers and singer/songwriters, this DAW is totally fine.  The only people who may find lacks are Audio Engineers and more serious Composers - the former more than the latter, IME/O.

On 10/16/2020 at 8:00 AM, Teegarden said:

1.  
2.  
3.  
4. Or maybe they complain more, because they have more problems. Anyway, it is impossible to compare that. I think that the tone on the Sonar and CbB forum is was and is much more positive than usually found on other forums. People treat each other with respect and are very helpful. That might also explain the difference (and language) in forum topics?

 

No.  If you actually read the threads - which I do because I am a customer of theirs... 50% of them, as expected, are exaggerations and 25% of them are people who simply don't know how to operate the application.  This applies to other software as well.  I've read the Pro Tools forums ? 

On 10/16/2020 at 8:00 AM, Teegarden said:

1.  
2.  
3.  
4.  
5. You miss the point that Bandlab invests a lot continuously. Talking about ROI I assume a corporate point of view, not consumer.

 

Most end users couldn't give a rat's *** about BandLab.  They're looking at it from their point of view.  I think you either have it backwards, or you're trying to flip this to create a point where none exists.  What you're referring to is completely non-factor.

But it doesn't matter, because it's a $0 product, which is what my point is.  There is only something to gain by trying it, and this is what I tell people on Reddit.

Cakewalk should be the default first try for anyone on the Windows Platform who is looking for a DAW - much like GarageBand/Logic Pro X is on the macOS Platform.  I don't think anyone should pay for anything without first trying it.  You start with Cakewalk, and you move off of it if it doesn't meet your needs/requirements, you have to use a different DAW for frequent collaboration with other artists, or you are deep in a market where it isn't as strong as other DAW which may come with fairly low price tags, anyways.

Otherwise, why not.  Get it and sit on it.

[Teegarden]

56 minutes ago, Maestro said:

I use Cakewalk on my Laptop for sketching out ideas on the go when I don't feel like carrying around my Cubase Pro dongle with me, which has several software licenses on it (Cubase Pro, WaveLab Pro, Groove Agent 5, and some VST Sound Libraries... basically a $1,500 dongle that I odn't want to have to risk breaking/losing/having stolen/etc. every time I need to leave my home studio and use my laptop).  Since I do most things in MIDI, this is trivially portable between DAWs.

Cakewalk makes perfect sense as a backup, in my case.  I'm certainly not going to use something like REAPER, given how atrocious the UI and UX is in that DAW (personal opinion).

Also, DAWs like Cubase pretty much need ASIO for optimal performance.  For just sketching out MIDI compositions, I like having a "portable DAW" with great WASAPI support on Windows (Generic Drivers are 16-Bit only for Steinberg, and ASIO4ALL is pretty janky and locks our audio drivers unconfigurably).  I don't want to have to carry around an Audio Interface, as well.

Lastly, some people don't have to luxury of choosing what they can afford.  A $560-750 DAW is completely off the table for them.  If they don't already own another supported commercial DAW, they may not even be able to utilize crossgrade options to DAWs like Cubase, Studio One, and others.

On Windows, Cakewalk is the best option in the lower end of the price bracket.  I don't even think that is  debatable, personally.  But if you can afford better, things get really competitive once you get to the  ~$100 cost tier (Studio One 5 Artist, REAPER (if you can stand to use it)).

Unless a DAW is shipping with content like Logic Pro X, I don't generally buy based on bundled content.  You can get SampleTank or  Komplete during sales for fairly decent prices and that will cover all of your bread and butter sounds.

I don't expect anyone to drop a solution that works for them and PAY for another solution.  That's illogical. If they can deal with the quirks of the software - and all software has quirks - then I don't see any issue in them staying there.  That's the intelligent thing to do.  Responsible professionals do not DAW hop.  That's a waste of money and a productivity drain.

I've stated the reasons why I use two DAWs (purely for convenience reasons).  I could easily buy Cubase Elements for like $99 and that would probably work for what I use my Laptop for, but why pay $99 when I can just use Cakewalk and export MIDI clips that work flawlessly in Cubase?

I don't miss the point.  I think I've been pretty clear that I think they are doing better under BandLab than under Gibson, where the focus was mostly on adding content bundles and marketing that.  I've stated this here, as well as on Reddit.  I've been pretty good at recommending Cakewalk on KVR, VI-Control, r/MusicProduction and r/EDMProduction - and I ALWAYS make sure to mention that the DAW gets really good active support from the developers; both bug fixes and new features.

People do not care how Cakewalk compares to Cubase 5.  They do care how it compares to REAPER 6 or whatever else they're considering.

I think for most producers and singer/songwriters, this DAW is totally fine.  The only people who may find lacks are Audio Engineers and more serious Composers - the former more than the latter, IME/O.

No.  If you actually read the threads - which I do because I am a customer of theirs... 50% of them, as expected, are exaggerations and 25% of them are people who simply don't know how to operate the application.  This applies to other software as well.  I've read the Pro Tools forums ? 

Most end users couldn't give a rat's *** about BandLab.  They're looking at it from their point of view.  I think you either have it backwards, or you're trying to flip this to create a point where none exists.  What you're referring to is completely non-factor.

But it doesn't matter, because it's a $0 product, which is what my point is.  There is only something to gain by trying it, and this is what I tell people on Reddit.

Cakewalk should be the default first try for anyone on the Windows Platform who is looking for a DAW - much like GarageBand/Logic Pro X is on the macOS Platform.  I don't think anyone should pay for anything without first trying it.  You start with Cakewalk, and you move off of it if it doesn't meet your needs/requirements, you have to use a different DAW for frequent collaboration with other artists, or you are deep in a market where it isn't as strong as other DAW which may come with fairly low price tags, anyways.

Otherwise, why not.  Get it and sit on it.

Let's stop wasting time and let's make music, each on his preferred DAW ?

[Will.]

I think this discussion -- "which has turned into some sort of heated debate" between @Maestro @Teegarden and @Craig Reeves is interesting, but I feel one crucial information has been left out.

First of all, there's been some really interesting pointers given and counter attacks too. I feel this is unfair though, Meaning - We can't really make comparisons or compare Cakewalk with the DAW's mention in previous replies nor we actually say and to quote what Maestro said: I bet more professionals use Logic Pro X than they do Cakewalk. 

Of course, this will is true. So is it for FL Studio; Cubase; Pro Tools and Ableton -- why though? Well, your standard system in any professional studio's are Mac. That's why every professional studio uses Pro tools, Logic and FL Studio as their standard DAW. Cakewalk is yet to migrate over into that world. Gibson had a beta version running with Sonar, but hack knows what happen to it after they've shut down. So it's unfair to say or claim such discussion. If Cakewalk had to migrate over to Mac 30 years ago - I bet this debate would've gone differently. So, I think there's a bit of a disadvantage in the discussion on this.

Yeah, I will go as far to say -  for me, personally it's the best free "Windows DAW" out on the market right now. 

[Maestro]

2 hours ago, Will_Kaydo said:

I think this discussion -- "which has turned into some sort of heated debate" between @Maestro @Teegarden and @Craig Reeves is interesting, but I feel one crucial information has been left out.

First of all, there's been some really interesting pointers given and counter attacks too. I feel this is unfair though, Meaning - We can't really make comparisons or compare Cakewalk with the DAW's mention in previous replies nor we actually say and to quote what Maestro said: I bet more professionals use Logic Pro X than they do Cakewalk. 

Of course, this will is true. So is it for FL Studio; Cubase; Pro Tools and Ableton -- why though? Well, your standard system in any professional studio's are Mac. That's why every professional studio uses Pro tools, Logic and FL Studio as their standard DAW. Cakewalk is yet to migrate over into that world. Gibson had a beta version running with Sonar, but hack knows what happen to it after they've shut down. So it's unfair to say or claim such discussion. If Cakewalk had to migrate over to Mac 30 years ago - I bet this debate would've gone differently. So, I think there's a bit of a disadvantage in the discussion on this.

Yeah, I will go as far to say -  for me, personally it's the best free "Windows DAW" out on the market right now. 

 

 

 

Clarification is definitely needed:

1. The person I responded to stated that Cakewalk was the most used DAW "on the Windows platform."  This is the specific statement I disagreed with.  macOS has nothing to do with that, and Logic Pro X is irrelevant considering Apple discontinued the Windows version of Logic upon acquiring eMagic.  This is called "moving the goal post."
2. FL Studio didn't get native macOS support until 2018.    98.6% of its success came as a Windows-only DAW, and a pretty sizable chunk of that was due to how easily pirated that DAW was.
3. Digital Performer was macOS only until version  2012.  Being macOS only didn't stop it from being heavily "niched off."  DP is older than Cubase, and yet was overtaken  on macOS by Cubase, when Cubase started off as a Windows-only DAW and was ported a decade or more after DP's initial versions.
4. Cubase started off as a Windows-only DAW. -^^^
5. Pro Tools' Dominance has much to do with the fact that it was a frontrunner in developing the Digital/PC Recording market, aided largely with the hardware that integrated with it.    It  was Windows-only, it still would have become the recording standard because nothing else was nearly as good at Pro Tools at delivering the solution DigiDesign were selling.  DAWs like Performer, Cubase, and SONAR started off as MIDI Sequencers.

I think you are severely overrating just how valuable "being on macOS" actually is.  You're also overestimating its market penetration in the creative market.  

Even if you look at a lot of the famous producers and composers on YouTube... many of them run Windows.

The Creative = Mac is largely vestigial on the eve of  2020.

Edited October 29, 2020 by Maestro

[Will.]

30 minutes ago, Maestro said:

I think you are severely overrating just how valuable "being on macOS" actually is.  You're also overestimating its market penetration in the creative market.  

I guess when you read "too much" in what someone was trying to say - this tend to happen. Yet, you're still making comparisons between DAW's that migrated between Mac and Windows and a "Windows only" DAW. 

[chris.r]

Part of fault is on Windows as an OS, as they have been ignoring developing a stable audio engine for so many years, even today if I want have to use WASABI mode, I get different latency output in preferences every time I launch Cakewalk.

[Maestro]

5 hours ago, chris.r said:

Part of fault is on Windows as an OS, as they have been ignoring developing a stable audio engine for so many years, even today if I want have to use WASABI mode, I get different latency output in preferences every time I launch Cakewalk.

 

WASAPI has existed since Windows Vista, and works well.  Vista was released in 2006, over 14 years ago.

The issue is that DAW developers have been slow to adopt support for it, with even some Windows-only DAWs lacking support for WASAPI.

It's not as good as Core Audio, but it's not othe sh*t show that a lot of people make it out to be.

Professionals will always have an Interface with ASIO drivers, anyways.  This is not as huge an issue as many people make it out to be.

[Maestro]

10 hours ago, Will_Kaydo said:

I guess when you read "too much" in what someone was trying to say - this tend to happen. Yet, you're still making comparisons between DAW's that migrated between Mac and Windows and a "Windows only" DAW. 

You're making no sense.

The person said "on the Windows platform."  Nowhere in that original statement was it stipulated that SONAR could only be compared to "Windows-only DAWs." - particularly as this list grows smaller and smaller, year over year, it makes literally no sense.  macOS is not what kept SONAR back, and you display a complete lack of understanding of how the digital music recording industry has evolved in her cited examples.

 I've given examples of DAWs with deep feature sets, which are relatively renown, and which never got to where Cubase, Live, or FL Studio have despite being exclusive to macOS until relatively recently (given how long they have existed).  I've also given an example of a DAW (you cited) that didn't make the move to macOS until 2018, yet has seen far more success than SONAR (as a commercial [sold for $$$]  product) - even before then.  

Cakewalk was getting shuttered when FL Studio was just moving to macOS. 

But you seem to have chosen to ignore this and repeat nonsense.

Ableton, Cubase, Studio One, REAPER, FL Studio, et al. are DAWs  "on the Windows platform."

They don't get  excluded from a conversation simply because their developers had the foresight to invest in a port and follow through with those plans at opportune times.

If macOS is as big a deal as you say it is... seems like the investment would have been worth it, no?

Stagnation and Product Direction hurt SONAR.  Not the lack of a macOS port.  There are more than enough Windows users (musicians, producers, etc.) to make an industry leading DAW and not be ono macOS.  If your product is it hat good, it will even pull users off of that platform.

Edited October 30, 2020 by Maestro

[Mckayla Parker]

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[abacab]

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[RBH]

It's the best DAW on the market - but only if you use and learn it - kind of like most things in life.  It's comprehensive and allows you to learn multiple methods to get your results. It's very flexible work flow wise and covers a lot of ground if you want to do deep edits.

[rfssongs]

I tried a few others but they never felt comfortable to me. It always felt like trying to walk through a 2 foot mud pile. But then again I've been using cakewalk for 30 years.

[Noel Borthwick]

Some perspective from my viewpoint.

Best by definition is going to be subjective, because even though Cakewalk is an incredibly deep and powerful DAW with its 30+ year lineage, there are other simpler DAW’s that may be more appropriate to some workflows  because of their genre bias or other reasons. Live is a great example - if your primary interest is beatmaking you would be hard pressed to find something better for that workflow.
If you leave behind very personal preferences or workflows, to the original question I would say that IMO Cakewalk has by far the deepest feature set of any free DAW out there. Its mature and has decades of experience baked into it which few other DAW’s including many paid ones have. Of course we have our share of quirks and bugs (that arguably others have too) but it has been our highest priority to solve the more serious issues since the last 3 years.

To the last point I want to say that since day one our approach has never been “this is a free DAW now, so lets do the minimum to support it”.  To the contrary, we have used this generous opportunity to obsessively make this as good as we can for our users. The effort that has gone in the last 3 years has been more than ever in the history of Cakewalk, to focus on improving stability as well as building truly usable and useful features. None of us have a free lunch mindset here - we do this because we care for the product and users and want to excel.

As far as users cutting us slack because its free, while some more casual users might, we have thousands of professionals who make a living with this software, where the fact that its free makes no difference - the need to efficiently get their work done. We often work one on one with many users to ensure that our tools are robust and meet their needs as far as possible. The next release has a huge new feature directly based on feedback from many users working in exacting production environments with deadlines. 

All this to say that its as much of a pro product as anything out there and its being constantly improved with fixes and new features even more than some paid choices. Don’t let the free price tag fool you.

[DeeringAmps]

6 minutes ago, Noel Borthwick said:

Best by definition is going to be subjective

Don't be so modest.

The correct answer is YES!

Just take a well deserved bow as the audience stands to applaud...

t

?

[Jacques Boileau]

52 minutes ago, Noel Borthwick said:

Some perspective from my viewpoint.

Best by definition is going to be subjective, because even though Cakewalk is an incredibly deep and powerful DAW with its 30+ year lineage, there are other simpler DAW’s that may be more appropriate to some workflows  because of their genre bias or other reasons. Live is a great example - if your primary interest is beatmaking you would be hard pressed to find something better for that workflow.
If you leave behind very personal preferences or workflows, to the original question I would say that IMO Cakewalk has by far the deepest feature set of any free DAW out there. Its mature and has decades of experience baked into it which few other DAW’s including many paid ones have. Of course we have our share of quirks and bugs (that arguably others have too) but it has been our highest priority to solve the more serious issues since the last 3 years.

To the last point I want to say that since day one our approach has never been “this is a free DAW now, so lets do the minimum to support it”.  To the contrary, we have used this generous opportunity to obsessively make this as good as we can for our users. The effort that has gone in the last 3 years has been more than ever in the history of Cakewalk, to focus on improving stability as well as building truly usable and useful features. None of us have a free lunch mindset here - we do this because we care for the product and users and want to excel.

As far as users cutting us slack because its free, while some more casual users might, we have thousands of professionals who make a living with this software, where the fact that its free makes no difference - the need to efficiently get their work done. We often work one on one with many users to ensure that our tools are robust and meet their needs as far as possible. The next release has a huge new feature directly based on feedback from many users working in exacting production environments with deadlines. 

All this to say that its as much of a pro product as anything out there and its being constantly improved with fixes and new features even more than some paid choices. Don’t let the free price tag fool you.

This dedication is certainly a big part of what makes it the best for me. Notwithstanding the fact that it is excellent to work with. I'm a fan!

[Craig Anderton]

3 hours ago, Noel Borthwick said:

The effort that has gone in the last 3 years has been more than ever in the history of Cakewalk, to focus on improving stability as well as building truly usable and useful features.

As far as users cutting us slack because its free, while some more casual users might, we have thousands of professionals who make a living with this software, where the fact that its free makes no difference - the need to efficiently get their work done.

I can certainly vouch for the first sentence. Noel & Co. have really moved Cakewalk up another notch (or two) since BandLab took over. 

As to the second sentence, if you're a professional, you don't cut slack and you don't judge based on price. You judge something on whether it does the job you're paid to do. Whether it costs $0 or $2,000 doesn't matter, because the cost will (at least hopefully!) be a fraction of the income it allows you to earn.

At my various workshops (even if I'm doing my demos with a different program), I always recommend that Windows users download Cakewalk, no matter what program they use. I wouldn't be able to make that recommendation if it wasn't free. There are functions you can do in Cakewalk (like create Acidized files or extract tempo) that are at least difficult (if not impossible) to do in other programs. 

IMHO the "best" DAW is the one where you feel comfortable and inspired working with it.

 

[Lord Tim]

10 hours ago, Noel Borthwick said:

As far as users cutting us slack because its free, while some more casual users might, we have thousands of professionals who make a living with this software, where the fact that its free makes no difference - the need to efficiently get their work done. We often work one on one with many users to ensure that our tools are robust and meet their needs as far as possible. The next release has a huge new feature directly based on feedback from many users working in exacting production environments with deadlines. 

This is me.

I'm pretty confident that I could get a project done in any of the commercially available DAWs (and a lot of the freeware ones too for that matter), but my workflow is fastest in CbB because I'm so familiar with its workflow. But the moment this started getting in the way of my ability to deliver a project on time, I'd need to weigh up if it's worth my time (and ultimately my income) to stay with a familiar workflow that's impacting my job or move to something else and become as adept on that as I am on CbB. My clients don't care what I use, only that the job is done well and on time. Simple as that.

Thankfully, this has never been a problem for me. There were a few rocky releases a decade back and I think everyone paused for a bit when Gibson pulled the rug out a few years ago and decided where to go next. Luckily Bandlab came along and gave us a lifeline here. Of course there's still work to do, but in the last 3 of so years, it's been astounding what's been done as far as squashing long-standing bugs goes, and that's even not considering the new features we've gotten on top of that. I'd absolutely go elsewhere if I had to, but I'm glad that's not something I need to even think about.