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Astra-Ios

Arpeggiator MIDI Remote Question

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Posted (edited)

Hi and Hello 🙂

Hmm, CbBL-Arpeggiator in Inspector section acts funny. 
There are no problems assigning MIDI-Remote controls to the layed out parameters,
like latch/on/oktave etc for my MIDI-hardware-controller .
Everything seems to work fine, knobs and buttons move simultaneously with my MIDI-hardware. 
But in the end, the movings/motions (controlled by hardware) don't show any affect. It is quiet confusing,
because I can see the changes, which are caused bythe knobs and buttons in the arpeggiator-section.

Contolling the whole stuff with mouse is no problem at all.
Is this only on my system or did I miss something?

 

672620875_CbBLArp.PNG.ab24f4c06d23ba1969dcf52b09315421.PNG

Okay, right-click into one of these parameters and try to contol it with your MIDI Hardware/Controller. It will not change anything in the arp settings, even if virtually things change... he he 🙄

Edited by Astra-Ios

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Astra-Ios said:

Everything seems to work fine, knobs and buttons move simultaneously with my MIDI-hardware. 
But in the end, the movings/motions (controlled by hardware) don't show any affect. It is quiet confusing,
because I can see the changes, which are caused bythe knobs and buttons in the arpeggiator-section.

Contolling the whole stuff with mouse is no problem at all.
Is this only on my system or did I miss something?

Several months ago (as you noticed) I observed a disconnect between (1) the remote control of the virtual buttons and drop-down selectors in the Inspector-based Argpeggiator and (2) the underlying functionality of those virtual buttons.

For example, a remote CC (1) can make the latch button light up but (2) the latch function does not turn on.  The last time I checked, if I had the virtual latch button lit without the underlying function being on and then clicked the button with the mouse, the  button went unlit and the latch function turned on. (See update.**)

I tried different settings to try to make the remote control work in the arpeggiator without any success. In other places (such as track echo on/off) remote control worked properly.

100% pure speculation: perhaps the disconnect is related to Cakewalk's automation features.  

Its very simple to re-test--just assign any midi data to any arp function.  I will try again this afternoon. 

UPDATE: Just did a simple retest with SI-Bass and latch on/off via midi learn/remote midi.  As before the CC turns the virtual button on and off and has no effect on the function itself. 

**With the quick test, I was unable to replicate the virtual-button-being-out-of-sync-flip-flop effect.  Nevertheless, it is still possible to turn the Latch virtual button off (for example) via midi remote control leaving the function on, while the button shows it off.  As I recall, this was true of any of the arp buttons/selectors and their underlying functionality.

  

Edited by User 905133
(2) to clarify the "out-of-sync" disconnect; (1) to add the results of a very quick retest.
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Posted (edited)

Correct me, if I'm wrong, but 10, 15 years ago. wasn't the arpeggio-automation stuff ingetrated in here? 

I'm not sure - can't remember. But this could be a good place for arp-automation

 

 1093800687_CbBLAuto.PNG.9efe01bdf2b172ad0f4a3a586875cb98.PNG-->

 

Edited by Astra-Ios

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... maybe the arp automation (remote ctrl) reacts on a specific MIDI Port Channel...  I've only tried MIDI Channel 1 

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but - why should it be fixed? Nobody (in the world) is using this part of the program with MIDI control hardware... 

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45 minutes ago, Astra-Ios said:

Correct me, if I'm wrong, but 10, 15 years ago. wasn't the arpeggio-automation stuff ingetrated in here? 

I'm not sure - can't remember. But this could be a good place for arp-automation

 

 1093800687_CbBLAuto.PNG.9efe01bdf2b172ad0f4a3a586875cb98.PNG-->

 

Arpeggiator parameters are still selectable in the automation lanes of midi tracks but not instrument tracks. They seem to be working as expected on my system however it is something I rarely use. YMMV.

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Cool - but I can't find' em . Could you please send a picture. Did I loose orientation?

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Posted (edited)

Ah, okay - only in midi tracks, now its clear

2093312428_CbBLAuto2.PNG.fcd0b9f56c613716dbf55e27ac682569.PNG

Edited by Astra-Ios

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14 minutes ago, Base 57 said:

Arpeggiator parameters are still selectable in the automation lanes of midi tracks but not instrument tracks. They seem to be working as expected on my system however it is something I rarely use. YMMV.

Is it safe to assume "they seem to be working as expected" only refers to your use of automation lanes, not to the use of remote control /midi learn from an external midi controller? If you have had success with remote control midi from a controller to change the arpeggiator parameters, I would be very interested in that. Thanks.

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2 minutes ago, User 905133 said:

Is it safe to assume "they seem to be working as expected" only refers to your use of automation lanes, not to the use of remote control /midi learn from an external midi controller? If you have had success with remote control midi from a controller to change the arpeggiator parameters, I would be very interested in that. Thanks.

That is correct. The only controller I use is TDaw for the rare occasion that I need a remote transport control. I have keyboards with assignable knobs and sliders but life is too short. By the time I remember which knob does what I can have made the adjustment with the trackball.

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319802475_CbBLAuto3.PNG.a46780f68a6656fc5c7e2828b1e6e120.PNG

My MIDI hardware  (knob) assigned to Controller 78 turns the "Arp on/off" but it doesn't do the trick. Using the mouse everythink is okay 😩

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3 minutes ago, Base 57 said:

That is correct. The only controller I use is TDaw for the rare occasion that I need a remote transport control. I have keyboards with assignable knobs and sliders but life is too short. By the time I remember which knob does what I can have made the adjustment with the trackball.

Thanks for the confirmation.  I understand about personal workflows--for me setting CCs on my controllers and mapping them to my preferred parameters doesn't require any retraining, though I confess, I tend to use the same CCs for parameters and also have 3 x 5 index cards handy!!

Also thanks for mentioning the use of automation and midi tracks. As a test, I split the instrument track and tried remote midi on the midi track. Unfortunately, it didn't make a difference, but I can rule that out as a possible reason why remote midi doesn't work. 

 

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On 6/22/2020 at 1:50 PM, User 905133 said:

Several months ago (as you noticed) I observed a disconnect between (1) the remote control of the virtual buttons and drop-down selectors in the Inspector-based Argpeggiator and (2) the underlying functionality of those virtual buttons.

For example, a remote CC (1) can make the latch button light up but (2) the latch function does not turn on.  The last time I checked, if I had the virtual latch button lit without the underlying function being on and then clicked the button with the mouse, the  button went unlit and the latch function turned on. (See update.**)

I tried different settings to try to make the remote control work in the arpeggiator without any success. In other places (such as track echo on/off) remote control worked properly.

100% pure speculation: perhaps the disconnect is related to Cakewalk's automation features.    [emphasis added]

Based on more more recent tests, I am moving the "100% pure speculation" out of the realm of possibility and into the realm of extreme probability

It seems to me that the automation apparatus intercepts remote control midi [aka midi learn] with regard to the Inspector-based Arpeggiator in such a way that the "learned midi" controls in the Arpeggiator (a) affect the virtual buttons and selectors but (b) the automation apparatus intercepts them.

Thanks to @Astra-Ios for reminding me of this issue as it prompted me to begin re-exploring the problem (and pursuing possible work-arounds that might lead to a fix)!!!!  Thanks also to @Base 57 for comments that led me to explore automation lanes--which I never use (except for testing things)--in connection with remote control midi.  Maybe now I will be able to do what I had been wanting to do!!!  🙂  

 

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14 hours ago, Cellotomics said:

Hey 905133

Have you been able to find a solution? If so, I'd be very interested.

10 hours ago, pwalpwal said:

has this been reported to the bakers?

@CellotomicsYes--Voltage Modular by Cherry Audio.  😛 (It handles arpeggiation to my liking!!)

@pwalpwalAs for the Inspector-based Arpeggio being controlled by remote control MIDI, so far as I can tell, it seems to be a complex issue that might even be the result of some design decisions rather than a bug.  Also, it might be that despite my efforts to get it working, there is a setting somewhere that would make it work the way normal remote control/MIDI learn works.

My last effort on this issue was to try to design a feature request that would allow Arpeggiator users to set the MIDI routing such that it works on a single midi channel thereby allowing remote control to work properly. Unfortunately, I cannot find a MIDI signal flow chart comparable the audio signal flow chart.  Without that, I didn't feel comfortable proposing a routing switch (and I got tired of trying to create my own). 

If I remember correctly, one idea I was pursuing that the problem had to do with the Arpeggiator's multiple channel ability. I don't remember the details, but if others are interested in the issue, I could try to retrace my steps.**    

**ADDENDUM:

I back tracked my explorations a little. The Inspector-based Arpeggiator is capable of sending data to one or multiple channels.  I suspect this ability interferes with the proper functioning of remote control MIDI.  For my intended usage I would prefer to not have the multi-channel ability on a single Arpreggiator and to have remote control working properly. That's why when I last explored this issue I was looking into MIDI data flow in order to make a feature request that would turn each individual Arpeggiator into a single channel function.

I believe that in order for it to have multi-channel abilities, it cannot respect channelized midi commands. Ergo, not a bug but a design decision.  

I could be wrong, though.

Quote

Ch - MIDI input and output menu—the Arpeggiator only affects input data that’s on the MIDI channels listed on this menu. The arpeggiator always obeys the track’s assigned output channel, plus any additional channels specified in the arpeggiators Ch menu. [emphasis added]

image.png

BTW: Thanks reminding me of this issue.  I made a formal feature request. At first I thought I was the only one interested in controlling the Arpeggiator via Remote Control MIDI, but evidently others are interested, too.  Maybe someone official will see the request and will tell us how it can be done.  If not, maybe it can be implemented.  🙂  

Edited by User 905133
(2) to add a "BTW"; (1) to add an addendum

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