The inexplicable wretchedness of trying to use the drum pane

[Starship Krupa]

Every couple of years I make an effort, I try, I really do, to use the drum grid.

And every time it ends in failure.

This time I'm attempting to use Addictive Drums 2 to program a beat. I want to use the drum grid, with the names of the notes over on the left hand side.

Step 1 I make a simple instrument track with Addictive Drums on it.

Step 2 I go to Preferences and create a new drum map using the Addictive Drums 2 map I downloaded from the forum (including the step of, for some reason, having to change the Out Port for all of the instruments to Addictive Drums 2 instead of my MIDI interface). I know it sounds weird to say that I create a new drum map using an existing drum map, but I didn't make up this terminology.

Step 3 I set the output of the MIDI strip in Inspector to use the Addictive Drums 2 map I just set up in Preferences. At this point I can play the drums using my MIDI keyboard.

Step 4 I open the Piano Roll View, and I see that under "View," "Show/Hide Drum Pane" is checked.

Yet what I see in my Piano Roll View is an empty grey box on the left, and a space with a set of vertical grid lines to its right. What I do not see is a drum editing grid with the drum note names. This drum track is so far the only MIDI track in the project, and I see in the PRV that it is the selected track.

Not only is the process too many steps to take for what is a simple matter in every other DAW I've used, it's also needlessly obscure, and having to dance back and forth between Track View, Preferences, Inspector, and Piano Roll View is absurd.

And of course, the worst thing about all this hassle is at the end of it, I still didn't achieve my simple goal of setting up a grid for programming drums with the drum names on the left. Any inspiration or even desire I had to work on the drum beat has evaporated.

After almost 9 years of beating my head against this and sharing my frustrations I'm past the point of asking for the process to be improved, streamlined, simplified, or getting any changes whatsoever. All I can do is vent, so I am venting. Here's the fruit of about an hour of hassle:

Edited 2 hours ago by Starship Krupa
change title

[Mr No Name]

imo, in the world of DAWS and the battle to be the best and each one wanting / having to out do each other, each iteration needs to find an extra USP, something that a competing one doesn't provide, this produces never ending and ceaseless levels of complexity, causing the end user the need to have a forehead the size of a tefal man just to do a song. I would guesstimate in 5 years time you will need a university degree to use one.  A masters degree to learn one (including £30,000 debt probably).

[Mr No Name]

A picture of the Tefal man for reference

 

[sjoens]

So what you're saying is the drum pane is a pain?.... wait, is that a drum stick???   Mmmmmm 

Edited October 27 by sjoens

[Promidi]

I rarely bother with the Drum Pane.  I just use the normal PRV, right click on the keyboard and then select "Addictive drums 2" - the keyboard is replaced by the kit piece names.

The list that appears here is derived from the master.ins file  - for CbB, this is in the "%APPDATA%\Cakewalk\Cakewalk Core" folder. 

The contents of this text file "AD2.ins" goes in the .Note Names section of your master.ins file.

Make a Backup before editing.

Make sure CbB is closed while editing

 

AD2.ins

[Starship Krupa]

1 hour ago, Promidi said:

I just use the normal PRV, right click on the keyboard and then select "Addictive drums 2" - the keyboard is replaced by the kit piece names.

I know that trick and have used it in the past, but I actually like using the drum grid. The times I've gotten it to work, that is.

Actually, my favorite visual drum editing view in Cakewalk-land is the diamonds one I can only get if I map to an external MIDI port. Which is another WTF. The best drum editing view in the DAW can't be used with soft synths.

And I have gotten it to work, for drum instruments that obey the GM standard mapping. It's the ones like AD2 (hands down the best sounding hits and articulations I've tried) and MDrummer that follow their own path which results in:

Edited October 26 by Starship Krupa

[Base 57]

I use the diamonds with VST.

Setting up the drum map is...

Ummm... 

Tedious. Yeah that is the word.

But I have been using the same map for years now without any problems. 

[Starship Krupa]

Just now, Base 57 said:

I use the diamonds with VST.

Setting up the drum map is...

Ummm... 

Tedious. Yeah that is the word.

But I have been using the same map for years now without any problems. 

Spill. How do I use the diamonds with a virtual drum instrument? The only way that's ever worked for me is an instrument definition set to use MIDI channel 10.

Yeah, once I manage to get a map to work, it mostly keeps working. Sometimes it doesn't, for no reason I can figure out. Setting up new drum maps is the worst minefield.

[Base 57]

Using the phone now. 

Be back in studio next week. I will try to help more then. 

Meanwhile, some kind of voodoo dance may be more effective than a brain bashing keyboard tantrum.

 🙄

[Promidi]

With Cakewalk, Drum Maps move in mysterious ways......(Which is why I just use the notes pane for drums)

The other reason I use the notes pane is that when I use the drum pane via a drum map, I lose access to the RPNs and NRPNs as defined in my instrument definition files (which my outboard gear can take advantage of to get to various stuff).

[Amberwolf]

Slight OT, as I don't have a solution to anything regarding drum-specific views, but a thought to consider:

I use the regular PRV notes pane (or PR view in tracks of view) rather than any drum view that shows just diamonds because I don't always want to play the full drum note, and I want control over the length of the note directly.  

 

If your drum synth or source doesn't just always play the full sound out regardless of how long or short the note fed to it is, you may find it helpful on occasion to be able to play less than the full note. 

 

[David Baay]

I also use the PRV, and generally don't need to reference kit piece names. Since I mostly play the drums in from the keyboard in real time,  I learn the mapping by feel and have a limited amount of editing to do after the fact. If it's not obvious what's what from the pattern of notes and my memory of where they are on the keyboard, a quick click on a note or swipe of the PRV keyboard tells me what/where a kit piece is. That said. I just loaded the AD2 drum map and did not have any issues; just make sure to have the instrument loaded before instantiating the map in order for the output port to default correctly. The page where the map is shared also has project and track templates that will take care of the output assignments and speed the setup of multitrack outputs:

https://legacy.cakewalk.com/Support/Knowledge-Base/2007013364/Setting-up-a-Drum-Map-for-Addictive-Drums-2-in-SONAR

No doubt Sonar's implementation of drum maps is a bit antiquated, not very intuitive, and can be awkward in a number of ways, but I've never found it to be so bad that it's actually frustrating. Like a lot of MIDI-related processes, it can be tedious, but no more than that.

[Starship Krupa]

23 minutes ago, David Baay said:

I just loaded the AD2 drum map and did not have any issues

That's one of the frustrating things, it's worked okay in the past, but then I go to do it again and am faced with the blankness. Yes, I've obviously missed a step somewhere, but for heaven's sake, should the whole house of cards depend on so many fiddly little bits?

25 minutes ago, David Baay said:

I've never found it to be so bad that it's actually frustrating. Like a lot of MIDI-related processes, it can be tedious, but no more than that

I was spoiled by how easy it is in my previous primary DAW.

There's a button in the piano roll view where you can select which scale you want to use, and drum maps are listed in there. You click the button and choose a map. Done. Similar to instrument definitions in Cakeland, except that the program knows to display a drum grid editor when the user selects a drum map vs. a scale.

To make your own custom drum map, you edit a text file where the format is [MIDI Note Number] [Drum Hit Name]. If you want to get fancier, you can open this file as a CSV in a spreadsheet and add an instrument's GUID so that it will load automatically whenever you put that instrument on a track.

The last represents a bit of MIDI-fiddly, but it's fully graspable by me and only needs to be done once per virtual drum instrument. Ever after, all you have to do is click that Scale button and select it. Nothing else, no changing the MIDI track's output, no having to manually tell the piano roll view to switch to a drum grid, no having to go into a dialog and reset the mappings to point to the instrument rather than the hardware out.

I don't even mind the Cakewalk Drum Map Editor that much. It has its idiosyncrasies, but I can navigate it. It's where the drum map gets applied to the PRV with the intention of showing a grid editor with note names that the process falls apart.

As if by magic (or more realistically, some kind of advanced AI), that other program "knows" that when I select a drum map, I want to use it on the currently-selected track, that I want to use the drum grid to edit and that I want to see the names of the drum instruments over on the left. How could a program know such things? Machine learning? Maybe they're licensing some iZotope tech.

Admittedly Cakewalk covers a wider variety of use cases: What if I want to use a drum map but don't want to also edit with a drum grid and drum kit names visible? What if I want to use a drum map, but have it apply to a MIDI track other than the one I currently have selected and am displaying in the piano roll? What if I want all of the mappings set to my external MIDI port instead of the drum VI that's associated with my currently selected track? What if I want to select a drum map just for the sake of selecting a drum map and then have it sit there doing jack crap? What if I find that performing half a dozen conceptually unrelated steps before I start laying down a beat enhances my creativity? What if I want my virtual drum machines to be so virtual that they don't even produce sound? For those times, Cakewalk has them beat (no pun intended).

Why has no attention been given to this feature for so long? Did programmed drum beats fall out of fashion with "the kids?" Is it just for us old people with our "Blue Monday" and "I Feel Love?"

Yes, it's something I'm doing wrong or omitting, but really, must it be so fragile that a veteran user of the program finds themselves so thwarted? Why is it that when I post about my frustrations, the majority of follow-ups talk about how they don't use the feature?

[mettelus]

17 hours ago, Starship Krupa said:

and MDrummer that follow their own path which results in:

This gave me a chuckle. I seem to do similar with MDrummer from time to time, and have a file somewhere with notes on all of it. The "Random Loops," which defaults to ON causes a lot of grief being buried in one of the sub menus (Quick Setup tab->Additional button in the middle of the right side->Shut "Random Loops" off). ALSO... in that same window (the Additional button is also on the Rhythm Editor tab), shut off "Sequencer Mode" in the Advanced section if you are working on a specific rhythm and don't want it to change when previewing it, i.e., previewing an Intro or Break will jump to a beat once it completes otherwise. I think those two settings are the biggest stumbling blocks for new folks.

What I have learned with MDrummer (my preference) is to do all kit/beat work inside the VST (so can easily save/manipulate them), and focus on using the DAW via a Drum/Articulation map to trigger the rhythms (Intros, Beats, Breaks, Long Breaks, Outros, you get 12 of each). The Tutorial #2  on MIDI Command Method sorta jumps straight into that one. Grace notes you can fire from within the DAW. You "can" also do the entire kit this way,  but that undermines the internals of MDrummer (which is best to think of as its own DAW TBH). Once a kit is set up (which alone can be complex, since you can layer/FX just about anything internally), I tend to spend most of my time in the Rhythm Editor tab, but MDrummer is insanely complex with what it can do.

The internal "Song" tab I find superfluous if running within a DAW, so be sure to also shut that off (another thing that defaults to "on"). The play buttons can make the DAW and MDrummer play simultaneously.

[Colin Nicholls]

On 10/26/2024 at 8:17 AM, Starship Krupa said:

I go to Preferences and create a new drum map using the Addictive Drums 2 map I downloaded from the forum (including the step of, for some reason, having to change the Out Port for all of the instruments to Addictive Drums 2 instead of my MIDI interface).

It's not a mystery. I've written about this.

Reading this thread makes me wonder if an update for that article is in order. I realize it kind of proves your point, in that the goal of the article is to say, "Yes, Drum Maps are a little tricky, and here's why", and it is not intended to be "here's how to use a Drum Map effectively with the smallest headache possible".

So perhaps it is a separate article.

Things get even worse when you've customized AD2's keyboard mapping to your own personal key/drum controller preferences, and you need to build your own drum map and not just pull one off the Internet...

[Starship Krupa]

6 hours ago, mettelus said:

MDrummer (which is best to think of as its own DAW TBH)

And I'm not going to go to the trouble of learning a new DAW just to do one instrument.

TBH, with the exception of Breaktweaker, I rarely even use a drum machine's internal loops, much less the sequencer. I prefer to program my own beats.

6 hours ago, mettelus said:

[just about every MeldaProduction plug-in] is insanely complex with what it can do.

Fixed.😄

[David Baay]

On 10/26/2024 at 11:20 PM, Starship Krupa said:

There's a button in the piano roll view where you can select which scale you want to use, and drum maps are listed in there. You click the button and choose a map. Done.

The main difference with CW is that the "button" for setting maps is the Output widget of the MIDI track (or MIDI tab of an Instrument track). You can't get to it from the PRV so it's not as intuitive, but the procedure is no more complicated if you have the Inspector showing.

On 10/26/2024 at 11:20 PM, Starship Krupa said:

If you want to get fancier, you can open this file as a CSV in a spreadsheet and add an instrument's GUID so that it will load automatically whenever you put that instrument on a track.

This where CW's track templates come in. Again, different, but equally simple after you've done the initial setup and saved the template - or acquired one that someone else created.

On 10/26/2024 at 11:20 PM, Starship Krupa said:

Did programmed drum beats fall out of fashion with "the kids?"... 

... Why is it that when I post about my frustrations, the majority of follow-ups talk about how they don't use the feature?

As mentioned, I've always recorded drum parts in real time from the keyboard, and having a map in the PRV doesn't really facilitate that, which is why I don't use them all the time. But I've been at this game long enough that I've had quite a bit of experience even with features I don't use frequently. For me the usefulness of drum maps is more in their ability to map different keys to different instruments/channels and to allow muting/soloing individual notes in the PRV. I more often use them for atypical purposes like routing different note ranges to the different horns by channel in a multitimbral synth when composing for a horn section  or blocking the passage of notes that don't correspond to the pitches available in a physical music box or tongue drum so that I don't compose something it can't play. I wouldn't have as much use for a "map" that just shows names without offering actual "mapping" functions.

 

[Starship Krupa]

On 10/28/2024 at 8:03 AM, David Baay said:

This where CW's track templates come in.

This requires getting it right in the first place, which is of course no mean feat.

I've also had it happen where I've saved a track template from a working track and had it fail to load properly, with the point of failure either being the port routing or the blank drum pane.

On 10/28/2024 at 8:03 AM, David Baay said:

You can't get to it from the PRV so it's not as intuitive

That is such an understatement that it should be written in 48pt. flashing red letters. It's ludicrously unintuitive.

Even after the user searches with Google to figure out where to go to apply a drum map, what does the resulting menu say? "Create New Drum Map." WTH? I want to use an existing drum map, not create a new one. And yes, after nearly a decade of using the software I understand that what it really means is "create a new drum mapping."

It's like saying that paper cheques and ATM-only cards were "not as convenient" as debit cards. And Cakewalk's configuration is a bank that doesn't issue debit cards in 2024 because it was founded in an era before debit cards existed.

Mapping is the paper checks, still useful if you want to put one in snail mail to pay your utility bill. The nostalgic frisson of writing out the amount in long hand with the amount in cents written as "and 42/100." The Drum Pane is the card. Rather than being able to use it at the point of sale, the user has to locate an ATM, withdraw cash, then go to where they want to spend the money. Where they notice other things they want to buy and realize they didn't withdraw enough cash to get everything.

Having the menu only accessible in either Console View or Track View, rather than a right click in the Drum Pane itself or the PRV menu, is like trying to use an ATM-only card for a bank that doesn't have ATM's in the town where the user is on vacation. First, find an ATM. Then hope that it still has money. Then memorize the location so that you can drive back there every time you need more money. And then when you find the ATM again, it's now out of money because it's the Monday of a three day weekend.

Party like it's 1989 (in Ibiza and you're out of refreshments)!

On 10/28/2024 at 8:03 AM, David Baay said:

As mentioned, I've always recorded drum parts in real time from the keyboard, and having a map in the PRV doesn't really facilitate that, which is why I don't use them all the time. But I've been at this game long enough that I've had quite a bit of experience even with features I don't use frequently. For me the usefulness of drum maps is more in their ability to map different keys to different instruments/channels

Yes, since you don't use the feature, it's not a problem for you. You get paid in cash and only use the ATM to make deposits so you can use checks when you need to pay bills. No problem if the farmer's market doesn't accept your debit card because you always have cash.😄

There's a reason why I titled this topic "drum pane" rather than "drum maps." It's because I'm talking about that specific use case and I wanted any discussion to be about displaying the note names and being able to use the drum grid rather than triggering the usual "being able to change the routing of controllers to notes is part of my workflow and the versatility of the drum maps is so awesome."

It's a joint account with an estranged spouse. Note mapping is note mapping and the drum grid is the drum grid and whatever they originally had in common is no longer relevant. Long past time for a divorce.

Dang, I stretched that banking metaphor like saltwater taffy🤪

The mapping part of the feature is great, I've used it myself when I wanted to remap to the GM note layout so I can play finger drums with my left thumb on the kick and middle finger on the snare, and high hats and toms with the right hand.

That part of Drum Maps is wicked useful, if a bit of a slog to set up.

The other use of Drum Maps is just wicked in the original sense of the term.

[David Baay]

41 minutes ago, Starship Krupa said:

"Create New Drum Map." WTH? I want to use an existing drum map, not create a new one. And yes, after nearly a decade of using the software I understand that what it really means is "create a new drum mapping."

Actually the word "Create" is not included; it's just "New Drum Map", and the idea is that you're adding a new map to the project that can contain multiple maps - just like adding a "new" track, folder, bus, marker, etc. It has to be applied to the Output because it's actually a realtime "mapper" that can rewrite note event numbers, channels and velocities on the fly and send them to different outputs according to input pitch, not just re-labling pitch names in the PRV.

As designed, the drum pane depends on drum maps to work. I guess this boils down to a Feature Request to be able to add labels to the drum pane without invoking a drum map, but it may be that the mute/solo functions of the drum pane also depend on the map, and you might lose that; I don't know.

All I know is that the existing impementation has always worked for me when I needed it with a minimum fuss and mystery. Maybe the problem is better addressed by determing exactly how the basic process falls down for you in particular situations (e.g. default output assignment, blank drum pane) and having the Bakers find ways to cure those particular issues. And possibly they could put a menu option in the PRV to "Add Drum Map" that opens the pick list and applies the selection to the output of the current track under the covers. I think this would be a better approach than adding a "labeling-only" feature.

 

 

[Starship Krupa]

4 minutes ago, David Baay said:

the idea is that you're adding a new map to the project that can contain multiple maps - just like adding a "new" track, folder, bus, marker, etc. It has to be applied to the Output because it's actually a realtime "mapper" that can rewrite note event numbers, channels and velocities on the fly and send them to different outputs according to input pitch, not just re-labling pitch names in the PRV.

This was geeksplained to me years ago by the much missed @scook. Yes, I understand why it's "and 50/100" rather than just "and 50 cents."😄 Still baffling for the poor soul seeing it for the first time.

8 minutes ago, David Baay said:

I guess this boils down to a Feature Request to be able to add labels to the drum pane without invoking a drum map, but it may be that the mute/solo functions of the drum pane also depend on the map, and you might lose that; I don't know.

All I know is that the existing implementation has always worked for me when I needed it with a minimum fuss and mystery. Maybe the problem is better addressed by determining exactly how the basic process falls down for you in particular situations (e.g. default output assignment, blank drum pane) and having the Bakers find ways to cure those particular issues. And possibly they could put a menu option in the PRV to "Add Drum Map" that opens the pick list and applies the selection to the output of the current track under the covers. I think this would be a better approach than adding a "labeling-only" feature.

There is also a reason why I framed it as a rant of frustration rather than a well-considered feature request. I have submitted the latter multiple times, in details small and great, in moods frustrated and calm. From "here's exactly how I would like it to work" to "just a context menu pointing to the drum map options in the drum pane." The latter would have saved me hours, literally, when I was new to the program. As much as I detest the question, how hard could it be?

I've feature requested all I'm gonna request until I'm requested to have my request featured. This is venting.

TBF, I suspect that the devs know that it's messed up and needs a re-tooling. A big job to tackle that would take a chunk of time and resources to brainstorm how it should work and how to do it without breaking existing projects and workflows.