Will there be perpetual licenses?

[Craig Anderton]

1 hour ago, Starship Krupa said:

So, given all of the above, I still think it is unlikely that Sonar (nor Next) in its final released form will only be available via subscription.

I have no definitive answer, only comments.

Many companies have gone the route of perpetual license for more veteran users, and subscriptions for newer users. Although people cite Waves as proof that "subscription-only doesn't work," neither does perpetual only if you want to address as much of the market as possible.  At least UA, iZotope, PreSonus, Avid, etc. seem to think that way. 

In terms of backend e-commerce, I've been told by others that it's more complicated to have multiple pricing structures for multiple products. $15/month keeps it simple.

I think it was very smart to make Next part of the bundle. If people had to start with Sonar, it might be too daunting. Next gives them an on-ramp.

Continuing to offer CbB for free is smart as well. At some point, those using it will be aware of the added features in "Nu" Sonar, and may very well bite the bullet and buy the sub.

I think the main takeaway is that BandLab wants to assure users Sonar will be around. How they decide to pick up new users for Sonar only, or even whether that's something worth pursuing, is in the future. It may be that enough BandLab people start using Sonar that the idea of putting time and effort into wooing people away from Pro Tools and such just isn't worth it.

I interpret saying "not at this time" as Cakewalk signaling they reserve the right to change their minds. So if you really hate subscriptions, you can keep using CbB for free while you wait to see if the company introduces a perpetual sub.

For a reality check, don't forget the ultimate expensive "we have you by the gonads" subscription: Analog tape. $180 a year for Sonar is much less than what it cost for one reel of 2" tape that could record 30 minutes of audio. And that's not even considering that Sonar stuffs a quarter-million-dollar studio into your computer.  I believe in terms of value received, that's pretty good.

[Craig Anderton]

7 minutes ago, Misha said:

Even when company flipped the sub only decision, I stopped looking into their products. To me they are dead.

Hmmm...I'd think a company being so responsive to customer feedback, and pivoting so quickly, is a desirable characteristic. 

[Misha]

22 minutes ago, Craig Anderton said:

In terms of backend e-commerce, I've been told by others that it's more complicated to have multiple pricing structures for multiple products. $15/month keeps it simple.

$180 is not simple. If by the end of the year you don't pay up, toy is taken away. There are tons of options for perpetual licenses at this price level. Also, something that gets rarely mentioned, those who record  at home for 2-5 years  likely already accumulated all bells and whistles (plugins). Amount of plugins and content never convinced me to spend more.  Features do.

19 minutes ago, Craig Anderton said:

Hmmm...I'd think a company being so responsive to customer feedback, and pivoting so quickly, is a desirable characteristic. 

I believe they plainly chickened out and decided to quicky patch up the leak risking mass departure of customers. They done it once, likely they will attempt to do it again.

 

Edited June 13 by Misha

[Craig Anderton]

1 hour ago, Misha said:

I believe they plainly chickened out and decided to quicky patch up the leak risking mass departure of customers.

I have a somewhat different perspective. I think they may have forgotten that it's no longer a world where people buy Pro Tools and tons of Waves plugins because the ones with Pro Tools are sketchy. It's not a Pro Tools world anymore, and for those who use it, they've probably accumulated all the plugins they want by now. I think a subscription model at the price Waves offered would have been huge, if it had come out 20 years ago.

Times change, and these days, they change quickly. I'd place my bets on the companies that acknowledge and act on change, rather than the ones that pretend things haven't changed. I also have more respect for the companies that publicly say "we were wrong" compared to the ones that double down on being wrong.

 

[Misha]

5 minutes ago, Craig Anderton said:

Times change

I am not sure how you arrived at that conclusion as you can purchase perpetual licenses to most DAWs and plugins outright.

Yes, if a kid or somebody on tight budget can't afford to spend something with two zeros, subscriptions would likely work better, but as soon as something better comes out - they are gone you will never see them again. With perpetual license, it's an investment and commitment, where you will get discounts on upgrades, show loyalty and be more proficient knowing the software at the end . Whatever projects you create, will likely to open for you in 5-10 years (Sorry Macos).   The trend that I am seeing is more and more companies are offering to spread the payment over X amount of months. Which is smart. 

Speaking of X. Sonar X1 will open most current projects. You will lose most FX, but stems are there for the export

[Pathfinder]

On 6/6/2024 at 1:56 PM, Craig Anderton said:

And...let me add one more thing. Music software is a fickle, difficult, low-paying industry. If you look at the parking lots of DAW companies, you won't see luxury cars - more like 10-year-old Hondas. Everyone I know doing music software (and that's a lot of people!) loves what they do, and are willing to trade off the perqs of sweet corporate jobs in favor of something that fascinates them. They're usually musicians themselves who use their programs. It's a different world compared to making dishwashers for Whirlpool.

So the guy that owns Bandlab is NOT really a multi-Billionaire?  In response to no luxury cars in the parking lot?

Edited June 14 by Pathfinder

[AB9]

3 hours ago, Bristol_Jonesey said:

Except it isn't Cakewalk for a monthly fee, it's called Cakewalk Sonar

And you also get:

Early access to beta creation tools like 32-tracks in Studio, Voice Cleaner, Voice-to-MIDI, AutoKey, and more.

Unlimited Opportunities submissions to land live gigs, record deals, or mentorship from industry experts.

Distribution to release your music on major platforms, track your releases, and keep 100% of the royalties you make.

Fan Reach to market your music, build a contactable list of listeners, and grow your fanbase.

Profile Boost to get your profile promoted to high-traffic spots on the BandLab feed.

Permanent Member-exclusive features like a fifth guitar stem split on Splitter.

Customizable profile banners and the option to feature up to five profile photos.

 

Good list.  I would add:

1.  Financial stability for the product, instead of bouncing from company to company with all its deterimental impacts.

2.  Pay for those that work hard on updates, answering questions here, etc.

 

 

[backwoods]

Hope they eventually land at the bitwig/ protools model where by you pay a yearly subscription and if you let the subscription lapse you get to use the last version released in your paid year forever.  If they do that I'll buy it

[Brian Walton]

On 6/6/2024 at 1:56 PM, Craig Anderton said:

And...let me add one more thing. Music software is a fickle, difficult, low-paying industry. If you look at the parking lots of DAW companies, you won't see luxury cars - more like 10-year-old Hondas. Everyone I know doing music software (and that's a lot of people!) loves what they do, and are willing to trade off the perqs of sweet corporate jobs in favor of something that fascinates them. They're usually musicians themselves who use their programs. It's a different world compared to making dishwashers for Whirlpool.

Fact check.  The majority of millionaires drive Toyota and Honda not luxury vehicles and usually older ones.  

[Misha]

50 minutes ago, Brian Walton said:

Fact check.  The majority of millionaires drive Toyota and Honda not luxury vehicles and usually older ones. 

Well, I drove 3 Toyotas and one Honda in my lifetime. According to you - I can purchase whole Bandlab like a candy bar from a grocery store, with offer Mr.Meng can't refuse.   Ohh yes, if I will be a king of the hill,  free lifetime licenses to those who are willing tattoo "CAKEWALK" on their backs.

[John Vere]

I can’t afford a Toyota or a Honda. I have a Hyundai. 

[JonD]

3 hours ago, backwoods said:

Hope they eventually land at the bitwig/ protools model where by you pay a yearly subscription and if you let the subscription lapse you get to use the last version released in your paid year forever.....

You can add Studio One to that list.

That's at least three major DAW players that offer the perpetual license to appease users who aren't fans of the flat subscription model.  Seems rather short-sided to be an outlier in this regard -- especially when you're trying to increase your market-share and compete with the other DAWs.

[Craig Anderton]

6 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

So the guy that owns Bandlab is NOT really a multi-Billionaire?  In response to no luxury cars in the parking lot?

He's not a software developer writing music software for an hourly wage. 

As one example, a Senior Audio Software Engineer at Tencent makes $112,000/year. Starting wages are about half to 2/3 that. Bear in mind Tencent's revenue was $86 BILLION dollars in 2023. No DAW manufacturer comes within light years of that kind of revenue to spread around.

Based on the usual 50/30/20 budget for a living wage, a family of four would need a household income over $100,000 to get by in  Hawaii, Massachusetts, California, New York, Alaska, Maryland, Oregon, Vermont, Washington, New Jersey, Connecticut, and New Hampshire. There aren't a lot of music software development jobs in places with super-low costs of living. Even in Mississippi, with the lowest cost of living, a family of four would need around $75,000 just to get by these days. 

4 hours ago, Brian Walton said:

Fact check.  The majority of millionaires drive Toyota and Honda not luxury vehicles and usually older ones.  

I assume you're getting your info from the 2022 Experian Automotive study, of which you mentioned only two cars. Here's more detail from that report: "For those with a household income above $250,000, 61% choose to drive non-luxury brands like Toyota, Honda, Ford, Lexus, Subaru, BMW, Acura, Hyundai, Mercedes-Benz, and Chevrolet."

Well, I guess it depends on what you define as a "luxury" car. I'm not talking Alfa Romeos. Lexus is the luxury vehicle division of Toyota. Acura is the luxury vehicle division of Honda ("luxury" is the word they both use). For a typical BMW, you're looking at $50K and up.  The average price of a Mercedes-Benz starts around $50K and goes up from there.

For someone who's owned two cars in my life (66 VW and 2000 VW), an Acura, Lexus, BMW, or Mercedes looks pretty luxurious to me. 

For anyone who thinks that DAW manufacturers mint money, don't take my word for it. Buy some market research from Music Trades and check out the financials of music industry companies for yourself. I have.

I'll shut up now. 

 

[GreenLight]

I haven't been following the latest developments, but just saw the announcement on Gearspace so I came here.

Is this what we've been waiting for, for 18 months? A subscription-only model? What an enormous let-down. That isn't for me, I'm afraid. ?

I've been with Cakewalk for more than 25 years and will be very sad to go. But as a techno producer, I've always been intrigued by Ableton Live, so that's where I'm going unless a perpetual license manifests itself.

It's been a great ride! Thanks @Noel Borthwick and @msmcleod for all your attentive support all these years.

[twelvetone]

Well, the writing was on the wall the moment we were confronted with the red popup that fronted the periodic call-home re-registration system in CbB.  Consider that developers were paid to build what needed to be a bullet-proof system, so it was for a clear purpose, not just to see who is still using it.

But Meng's vision is Bandlab, not us. As a side effect, he gave us a free ride for some time. I appreciate that.

As to the 18 months, my guess is the bakers miscalculated time and cost, similar to what happened under Gibson when moving from the Sonar 8 to the X-style interface. As a developer myself, this happens all too often. I see Meng's patience being severely tested, let alone ours.

Edited June 14 by twelvetone

[Heath Row]

 

 

[Brian Walton]

11 hours ago, Misha said:

Well, I drove 3 Toyotas and one Honda in my lifetime. According to you - I can purchase whole Bandlab like a candy bar from a grocery store, with offer Mr.Meng can't refuse.   Ohh yes, if I will be a king of the hill,  free lifetime licenses to those who are willing tattoo "CAKEWALK" on their backs.

Lots of non-millionaires also drive Toyota and Honda,  and many non millionaires also drive luxury vehicles.  

The point I'm making is that studies have shown despite the normal person expecting the rich to drive high end cars.

The majority of millionaires don't invest heavily in depreciating assets and do in fact drive Honda and Toyota and hold on to these vehicles for a long time.

Judging someones net worth by the car they drive may not have the results you would expect.   

 

As for Craig's comments, yeah I would not expect DAW worker bees to have ridiculous income but also no the source is not a survey of income me above $250k a year...that also isn't an indicator of millionaire status.  Only a percentage of net worth individuals make that kind of yearly income.  The majority do not.

 

[Pathfinder]

9 hours ago, Craig Anderton said:

He's not a software developer writing music software for an hourly wage. 

As one example, a Senior Audio Software Engineer at Tencent makes $112,000/year. Starting wages are about half to 2/3 that. Bear in mind Tencent's revenue was $86 BILLION dollars in 2023. No DAW manufacturer comes within light years of that kind of revenue to spread around.

Based on the usual 50/30/20 budget for a living wage, a family of four would need a household income over $100,000 to get by in  Hawaii, Massachusetts, California, New York, Alaska, Maryland, Oregon, Vermont, Washington, New Jersey, Connecticut, and New Hampshire. There aren't a lot of music software development jobs in places with super-low costs of living. Even in Mississippi, with the lowest cost of living, a family of four would need around $75,000 just to get by these days. 

I assume you're getting your info from the 2022 Experian Automotive study, of which you mentioned only two cars. Here's more detail from that report: "For those with a household income above $250,000, 61% choose to drive non-luxury brands like Toyota, Honda, Ford, Lexus, Subaru, BMW, Acura, Hyundai, Mercedes-Benz, and Chevrolet."

Well, I guess it depends on what you define as a "luxury" car. I'm not talking Alfa Romeos. Lexus is the luxury vehicle division of Toyota. Acura is the luxury vehicle division of Honda ("luxury" is the word they both use). For a typical BMW, you're looking at $50K and up.  The average price of a Mercedes-Benz starts around $50K and goes up from there.

For someone who's owned two cars in my life (66 VW and 2000 VW), an Acura, Lexus, BMW, or Mercedes looks pretty luxurious to me. 

For anyone who thinks that DAW manufacturers mint money, don't take my word for it. Buy some market research from Music Trades and check out the financials of music industry companies for yourself. I have.

I'll shut up now. 

 

Craig-OK they are not all millionaires. I don't see what that has to do with either letting us purchase a license or just tell us we can't?  
I don't understand why you and others seek to rationalize this situation?

Just tell me I will NOT be able to purchase a license in the foreseeable future because as of right now we have no plans to sell licenses.
Simple, all this back and forth goes away and folks like me will do whatever we need to do- instead of hanging around hoping that the product we WANT will be available to purchase. 

On another forum, I was slammed when I defended CWBL-Why? Because others suggested it was free so folks got comfortable with it, use to it, used it everyday, etc and then their would be a price.

As stated many times by many others besides myself-no one is asking for it to be free-just not all SUBSCRIPTIONS.

Guess it's time I woke up myself and just moved on to another daw. I will from this point forward.

I will continue to use CWBL as long as I am permitted but at the same time will be learning another daw so I can finally make the transition complete.

I also am so tired of hearing "it was free for xxx amount of years". Who cares? I never asked for free. 
I have no doubt most long time CW users like myself also never asked for free. we would have paid-no problem.

I will end here and not participate in discussions about this BS again.................SAD!

[JnTuneTech]

For me anyway - the heart of any licensing model issue (or for the idea of "owning" anything), is first and foremost the concept of having the ability to continue using the tool (device, software, what have you), in realizing the personal functionality, creation(s) - etc., that you originally obtained or started with said property. The idea of "perpetual" ownership is less important to me than simply being able to at least continue to use what I originally bought. -I realize that with software, and modern capitalism in general, that is often difficult to guarantee.

In this instance (CbB and Sonar) - as of the information and track history at the time I am writing this - there may be no such promise of "perpetual" use - yet, but, from what I have seen so far, prospects are good that I will still have access to my old existing projects & materials in them going forwards. And it is all still moving forwards.  Almost 6 years of a free subscription to CbB, with continuing development and new full products in the ongoing stages of development speaks for a lot. -Yes, that may or may not develop into something that can be licensed "perpetually". Only time will tell.

That works for me right now, and we will see how the rest continues to develop. -Not a perfect world, for sure, but change is inevitable, and working with it as positively as possible may be a lot more enjoyable, in my experience.

[Starship Krupa]

12 hours ago, JonD said:

at least three major DAW players that offer the perpetual license to appease users who aren't fans of the flat subscription model

There are now only two DAW's in the entire market that are only available as part of a subscription: Adobe Audition and Sonar.

As recently as 48 hours ago, I was offering Audition as suggesting that Sonar being subscription-only was going to happen, but I now concede, and stand corrected.

I still suspect that Sonar will eventually be made available via some sort of perpetual license. Don't know when that might happen, but I suspect that it will.

Sooner than later I hope, because the lack of definite information has, as @John Vere points out, had a detrimental effect on this forum and the Cakewalk user community in general.

People who were "all-in" and rah-rah about CbB seem to be stalled. @Creative Sauce seems to be soldiering on, but his channel was shot through with "look at this amazing DAW that you can get for free."

And at least for a while, he was leaning in the direction of Studio One.

I guess it will shake out eventually. Sooner than later, I hope.

We're still in The Churn. James S.A. Corey's term for a period when things are in a major state of flux, followed by a return to relative stability. A shuffling of the deck.