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Will there be perpetual licenses?

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11 hours ago, Misha said:

Well, I drove 3 Toyotas and one Honda in my lifetime. According to you - I can purchase whole Bandlab like a candy bar from a grocery store, with offer Mr.Meng can't refuse.   Ohh yes, if I will be a king of the hill,  free lifetime licenses to those who are willing tattoo "CAKEWALK" on their backs.

Lots of non-millionaires also drive Toyota and Honda,  and many non millionaires also drive luxury vehicles.  

The point I'm making is that studies have shown despite the normal person expecting the rich to drive high end cars.

The majority of millionaires don't invest heavily in depreciating assets and do in fact drive Honda and Toyota and hold on to these vehicles for a long time.

Judging someones net worth by the car they drive may not have the results you would expect.   


As for Craig's comments, yeah I would not expect DAW worker bees to have ridiculous income but also no the source is not a survey of income me above $250k a year...that also isn't an indicator of millionaire status.  Only a percentage of net worth individuals make that kind of yearly income.  The majority do not.


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9 hours ago, Craig Anderton said:

He's not a software developer writing music software for an hourly wage. 

As one example, a Senior Audio Software Engineer at Tencent makes $112,000/year. Starting wages are about half to 2/3 that. Bear in mind Tencent's revenue was $86 BILLION dollars in 2023. No DAW manufacturer comes within light years of that kind of revenue to spread around.

Based on the usual 50/30/20 budget for a living wage, a family of four would need a household income over $100,000 to get by in  Hawaii, Massachusetts, California, New York, Alaska, Maryland, Oregon, Vermont, Washington, New Jersey, Connecticut, and New Hampshire. There aren't a lot of music software development jobs in places with super-low costs of living. Even in Mississippi, with the lowest cost of living, a family of four would need around $75,000 just to get by these days. 

I assume you're getting your info from the 2022 Experian Automotive study, of which you mentioned only two cars. Here's more detail from that report: "For those with a household income above $250,000, 61% choose to drive non-luxury brands like Toyota, Honda, Ford, Lexus, Subaru, BMW, Acura, Hyundai, Mercedes-Benz, and Chevrolet."

Well, I guess it depends on what you define as a "luxury" car. I'm not talking Alfa Romeos. Lexus is the luxury vehicle division of Toyota. Acura is the luxury vehicle division of Honda ("luxury" is the word they both use). For a typical BMW, you're looking at $50K and up.  The average price of a Mercedes-Benz starts around $50K and goes up from there.

For someone who's owned two cars in my life (66 VW and 2000 VW), an Acura, Lexus, BMW, or Mercedes looks pretty luxurious to me. 

For anyone who thinks that DAW manufacturers mint money, don't take my word for it. Buy some market research from Music Trades and check out the financials of music industry companies for yourself. I have.

I'll shut up now. 


Craig-OK they are not all millionaires. I don't see what that has to do with either letting us purchase a license or just tell us we can't?  
I don't understand why you and others seek to rationalize this situation?

Just tell me I will NOT be able to purchase a license in the foreseeable future because as of right now we have no plans to sell licenses.
Simple, all this back and forth goes away and folks like me will do whatever we need to do- instead of hanging around hoping that the product we WANT will be available to purchase. 

On another forum, I was slammed when I defended CWBL-Why? Because others suggested it was free so folks got comfortable with it, use to it, used it everyday, etc and then their would be a price.

As stated many times by many others besides myself-no one is asking for it to be free-just not all SUBSCRIPTIONS.

Guess it's time I woke up myself and just moved on to another daw. I will from this point forward.

I will continue to use CWBL as long as I am permitted but at the same time will be learning another daw so I can finally make the transition complete.

I also am so tired of hearing "it was free for xxx amount of years". Who cares? I never asked for free. 
I have no doubt most long time CW users like myself also never asked for free. we would have paid-no problem.

I will end here and not participate in discussions about this BS again.................SAD!

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For me anyway - the heart of any licensing model issue (or for the idea of "owning" anything), is first and foremost the concept of having the ability to continue using the tool (device, software, what have you), in realizing the personal functionality, creation(s) - etc., that you originally obtained or started with said property. The idea of "perpetual" ownership is less important to me than simply being able to at least continue to use what I originally bought. -I realize that with software, and modern capitalism in general, that is often difficult to guarantee.

In this instance (CbB and Sonar) - as of the information and track history at the time I am writing this - there may be no such promise of "perpetual" use - yet, but, from what I have seen so far, prospects are good that I will still have access to my old existing projects & materials in them going forwards. And it is all still moving forwards.  Almost 6 years of a free subscription to CbB, with continuing development and new full products in the ongoing stages of development speaks for a lot. -Yes, that may or may not develop into something that can be licensed "perpetually". Only time will tell.

That works for me right now, and we will see how the rest continues to develop. -Not a perfect world, for sure, but change is inevitable, and working with it as positively as possible may be a lot more enjoyable, in my experience.

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12 hours ago, JonD said:

at least three major DAW players that offer the perpetual license to appease users who aren't fans of the flat subscription model

There are now only two DAW's in the entire market that are only available as part of a subscription: Adobe Audition and Sonar.

As recently as 48 hours ago, I was offering Audition as suggesting that Sonar being subscription-only was going to happen, but I now concede, and stand corrected.

I still suspect that Sonar will eventually be made available via some sort of perpetual license. Don't know when that might happen, but I suspect that it will.

Sooner than later I hope, because the lack of definite information has, as @John Vere points out, had a detrimental effect on this forum and the Cakewalk user community in general.

People who were "all-in" and rah-rah about CbB seem to be stalled. @Creative Sauce seems to be soldiering on, but his channel was shot through with "look at this amazing DAW that you can get for free."

And at least for a while, he was leaning in the direction of Studio One.

I guess it will shake out eventually. Sooner than later, I hope.

We're still in The Churn. James S.A. Corey's term for a period when things are in a major state of flux, followed by a return to relative stability. A shuffling of the deck.

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14 minutes ago, Starship Krupa said:

@Creative Sauce seems to be soldiering on, but his channel was shot through with "look at this amazing DAW that you can get for free."

unfortunately LUNA is still just a beta on Windows, just ran the update today and now some things work better, but i suspect it will still be a while to stabilise for it to be fungible on Windows for more serious folks.

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Luna doesn’t support ARA. So way off my list. And I feel it might be a good Daw for people who choose to buy in to their whole system of audio interfaces and plug ins. That is it’s strong point for sure but that’s possible why they made it free( for now?) 

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23 hours ago, Bristol_Jonesey said:

And you also get:

Early access to beta creation tools like 32-tracks in Studio, Voice Cleaner, Voice-to-MIDI, AutoKey, and more.

Unlimited Opportunities submissions to land live gigs, record deals, or mentorship from industry experts.

Distribution to release your music on major platforms, track your releases, and keep 100% of the royalties you make.

Fan Reach to market your music, build a contactable list of listeners, and grow your fanbase.

Profile Boost to get your profile promoted to high-traffic spots on the BandLab feed.

Permanent Member-exclusive features like a fifth guitar stem split on Splitter.

Customizable profile banners and the option to feature up to five profile photos.


I don't need any of those whatsoever

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12 minutes ago, John Vere said:

Luna doesn’t support ARA. So way off my list. And I feel it might be a good Daw for people who choose to buy in to their whole system of audio interfaces and plug ins. That is it’s strong point for sure but that’s possible why they made it free( for now?) 

Try Waveform 13 free. I like it. I'm an audio guy but use EZD3 and EZK2 and Melodyne. Waveform takes a minute to get used to but it's very good.

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My conspiracy theory is the whole Bandlab membership is a ruse

A soft launch marketing tactic, to test the waters and see how many new subscribers they can pick up. They will 100% already know that there's a whole swathe of users out there who want a perpetual licence and nothing else.

My prediction is after a community backlash they will pivot into a dual model of subscription alongside a perpetual licence ( which will be more than the the sub ) to appease the masses and make themselves look good.

And this will have been the plan all along. People always want something they can't have. It creates desire.

It they launched both together they would sell less as there would be more apathy. 

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All of these sites prey on your ego and hopes of getting famous. You are paying them to string you along with the believe someone is going to all of the sudden offer you a lucrative recording contract (Get heard! Share your music! Colaborate!) but instead you get a steady stream of people offering to provide a large number of fake likes (promotion) for a "fee." Landr, SoundCloud, Bandlab, etc. are all the same.  You pay for false hope.

Yes, some do provide tools to get some songs produced (samples, loops, VSTs, etc.) and listeners can access your music but in the end it's just more come-ons to get money out of you. Cakewalk/Sonar being moved into that arena is borderline insulting and slimy.

If you have good, solid tunes you can get them noticed by playing live and touring. Yes, it costs you money to start out but over time you will get some idea if there is a market for your product and the record producers will come to you. You're packing them in? Well, we have an offer ... Otherwise you are creating product that will just languish on the website. 

Yes, there have been a couple of instances where someone has been noticed on these sites and moved on to a successful career but your odds are next to zero and you will have just kept spending money.

What many of us are asking is that the DAW be decoupled from this false hope so we can make music with a great tool either for ourselves or for others who can then decide how they want to pursue promotion. But don't make us subject to the continuous payment system that will not really do anything of value in the long run. We want the independence.


Edited by Terry Kelley
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Here is another flat earth conspiracy:

Now, that the wording in FAQ of discontinuation is gone and with today's announcement by Jesse, I think it is safe to assume they will keep Cakewalk alive for at least a year or two. Perhaps much longer.

Maybe they are just working to add certain features on top of HD GUI to add value to Sonar, so when it's ready for perpetual license release, there will be enough feature differences to seduce us, dear valued customers.  For example, if it offered chord track / assist and it would be only available at higher tier, I would consider getting that version.

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