Multichannel instrument problems

[jkoseattle]

I am using a plugin which lets me load multiple instruments into a single instance. I have done this, and set each instrument to Midi channels 1 and 2 respectively. In CW I then Append Instrument Track, set the original track's input to channel 1 and the appended track's input to channel 2. This way, I can play off the single plugin instance but switch between sounds just by using different CW tracks. I am currently using this for a cello. One channel is arco, the other is pizz. But I can really see how useful this would be for building a drum kit from scratch, for instance, so I'm keen to figure this out. Couple questions:

First off, this works great when I set it up. Then I'm playing around with it and maybe going to other tracks too, and every time, after a few minutes the channel 1 instrument no longer plays. It receives input fine, so I can record, but no playback. This is also true within the plugin's own window. Simply reloading the errant instrument immediately fixes it, but again, only lasts a couple minutes. This is true regardless of the instruments I am loading. It's always the original instrument, which I set to channel 1, and the appended track which is set to channel 2, continues working. What am I doing wrong here?

Second question, while it seems intuitive that this is a better way to build my sounds, what's really the difference between doing it this way vs just inserting two separate instances of the plugin and not messing around with channels at all?

[John Vere]

I cover this in this video if you have further questions please ask 

 

[jkoseattle]

Thank you!! At some point I must have deselected the Ask This Every Time option because now I don't get it. How do I turn that back on? Also, the video explains what is going on under the hood, but doesn't really give me an idea why I'm having the aforementioned problem.

[John Vere]

When I'm demonstrating the original dialog box I show you the ask every time box, it is not available in the new dialog. 

I actually don't know what you mean by " Append midi track" ? Never heard of that.  I see it's a menu item under Tracks, but its always greyed out no matter what I select? A search of the documentation ends with nothing. I can only think it's not what you use to set patches, you use the inspector or the GUI of the instrument.   If you use the GUI the INspector is set to none, I'm very clear about this in the video.   So possibly your workflow is different than most.

In the video I clearly show you how to use all the option of inserting tracks and how to set the patch and bank changes. I've never had it not work since I learned all that. The only thing that sometimes happens if it is a downloaded file then there might be program changes you might find in the event list. 

Edited November 7, 2021 by John Vere

[msmcleod]

@jkoseattle - it sounds like you're using per-output instrument tracks. 

While Cakewalk will automatically assign the each track to the appropriate MIDI ports / audio outputs of the instrument, it's still up to you to internally assign the MIDI ports to Audio ports within the plugin itself.

For example, within TTS-1 this is done here:

Within Omnisphere:


If you've forgotten to do this for one of the MIDI channels, and it's still mapped to the same output as MIDI Channel 1,  then any audio volume changes on that channel will also affect channel 1's output.
 

[John Vere]

@msmcleod.  Excellent screen shots but. That’s all clearly shown in the video. I demonstrated all 9 ways to insert instruments. As well as all the ways to use both dialogue boxes to select all the options. Everything is covered very clearly. Including setting up 4 outputs in TTS1. 
 

I can understand that experienced users don’t want to waste time watching tutorials but I personally would like comments and feedback as I’m willing to make changes so that this series is as accurate as I can make it.

There are many videos kicking around but every one I watch has either outdated info or only shows you one way to do something when there are multiple options available. I’m trying to show all options and let the users choose which one works for them. This is especially true with soft synths. 
 

I have only ever used the synth rack to insert instruments and I don’t even know when the new Add Track button appeared. I also always avoided Simple Instrument Tracks. I Always used  instruments plus a midi track 

But for making the tutorials I explored all the options and now I see the benefits of the new dialogue box and using Simple Instruments.  Exploring all the options has taught me dozens of better workflow methods. 
 

My concern here is that the video didn’t work for the OP and I’m wondering why. 
Did I miss something? Was I not clear? It boils down to either I’m a pour teacher or they are a pour student. 

A good teacher should be able to teach anyone, even those who have difficulty. So this is important to me. That video took 2 weeks to make. I need to decide if it’s all worth it before I spend the whole winter either contributing or wasting my time. 

Edited November 8, 2021 by John Vere

[jkoseattle]

@John Vere I do think your video is clear enough as far as it goes. I am actually an instructional designer in my day job, so I can provide a little feedback from that perspective. Listing 9 different ways to do something is overwhelming. If they are essentially accomplishing the same results but through different methods, it would be much more effective to limit yourself to the couple that cover all the bases. Where appropriate you can mention "Oh by the way you can also accomplish this by doing such and such".

If one unchecks "Ask This Every Time", then they're not going to get the dialog again. Explaining how to bring it back would be useful, especially for those users who may have unchecked it a long time ago, maybe back before they completely understood what they were doing. Such is the place I find myself.

Lastly, the option is called "Append Instrument Track". When I add a soft synth, I get the single instrument track including both Midi and Audio. Right-clicking on that track affords me the option of Splitting the Instrument track, and then right beneath it, Appending Instrument Track. Appending just makes a new instrument track, from which as I understand it (which may be wrong) allows me to have multiple tracks that use the same soft synth. And then I can change the input channel of each track.

Here is the UI for my soft synth:

You can see on the right that I have two patches loaded, Cello Sus and Cello Short, and that each is assigned a different Midi channel.

Here is the main track I originally created when inserting the cello soft synth, "Vc Long". You will see that the input is set to Midi channel 1 (not "None")

I the right-clicked on Vc Long and selected Append Instrument Track.

This created the track immediately below it, which I named Vc Short. For this track I set the input to channel 2, corresponding to the midi channel selected for the corresponding instrument in the soft synth also set to channel 2.

My issue is that while at first this works great, and each track only plays the instrument loaded for that Midi channel, after a few minutes, the first one (Vc Long in this case) stops playing. I can record into both tracks, so oddly this is not a Midi input problem, but only the second of those two tracks can be heard.

I hope this makes sense. Let me know if it's still not clear.

[John Vere]

Thanks a ton for your feedback. I appreciate it more than you might realize. And mostly because of it I will redo the video and add the missing info. As I said above as I make the videos I try and explore all options and as a result learn how stupidly complicated Cakewalk is. I would love it if they only had one way. That’s the way every other software works. 
I think I’ll change it to there are 9 ways to insert a VST I’ll show you the few that most people commonly use. 
 

Back to your issue. I see nothing wrong with your set up. Until I explore this append option however I can’t comment on if that might be the issue. 

But I can see that if you had inserted the synth and choose multiple outputs you would not have had to add the extra tracks later. Have you opened the synth rack to check you don’t have more than one instance of that synth inserted? 
I will also point out when I redo the video the options in the synth rack to show the insert dialogue box. 
In the mean time try the new Add Track dialogue as it’s a more user friendly interface 

Edited November 8, 2021 by John Vere

[jkoseattle]

Yeah, well that gets me back to the question of how to bring that dialog back! I have no option to choose multiple outputs lol!!

[John Vere]

I think we were typing same time. 
You can open the dialogue in the synth rack it’s on the top right. 
Also you can just insert a midi track and point it to the instrument. 
At this point what I would do is drag all your midi to midi tracks. Save the synth set up as a pre set. Delete synth and all the associated tracks. 
 

Use the Add Track widget and choose the synth Then in advanced choose the multi track output option. This will insert the synth with a simple instrument per track.
you can also create a folder here.

 Now drag and drop the midi tracks back to the new instrument tracks. Hold shift so they don’t wander off grid 

Load your saved pre set to regain your previous settings 

Edited November 8, 2021 by John Vere

[jkoseattle]

The problem is with the EastWest Play instrument. Has nothing to do with multichannel stuff. I load the instrument, plays great. Hot space to playback, as soon as playback is paused, instrument stops playing. So a different problem entirely. 

[John Vere]

That sounds more like the issue I demonstrate where the track inspector settings overrule any patches set in a VST GUI. 
There can also be PG changes that are on the event list but that isn’t common when it’s your own from scratch project. 
Also I’m not sure if you have found in the VST settings where to assign channels to different outputs. As in what @msmcleod shows you. 

[jkoseattle]

Here is the solution from EastWest support. Like I said, not multichannel at all:

The long sounds in the Hollywood Orchestra rely on Midi CC data to set dynamics/timbre - Cakewalk has a very strange default that resets CC data to zero on playback so it makes the instrument disappear.

Go to Cakewalk's Edit >> Preferences >> Project >> MIDI.
The options to uncheck are called “Zero Controllers When Play Stops” and “MIDI Event Chase on Play”.

Then reload your project once and you shouldn't have that issue going forward.

[jkoseattle]

@John Vere Perhaps you can help withSince I have determined that my problems were not multichannel-related, I have organized my ensemble into just a handful of soft synth instances, setting each instrument to a different Midi channel. All's well.

HOWEVER< I'm seeing this bizarre looking thing in the Console, where this mysterious strip is in place of the actual track 4's strip. What is that, and can't I get my regular strip back?

[jkoseattle]

Also, Cakewalk is not completely crashing and terminating ALL THE TIME when I start playing around in Console. Something is seriously wrong here. And yes, I just installed the most recent update.

Edited November 9, 2021 by jkoseattle

[msmcleod]

@jkoseattle - the console issue is not something we've seen before.

Is it possible you're running out of memory?  The East West libraries can be pretty big if you use a lot of them.

Could you post your current machine specs, i.e. RAM, CPU + speed ?

The other thing that could cause this might be a MIDI feedback issue if  you're using any loop back devices?

[jkoseattle]

@msmcleod I've only got a handful of instances, and have used many more than that in previous successful projects. What's different with this one is this is the first time I'm adding multiple instruments to a single EastWest Play instance and setting them to different Midi channels. I am trying to recreate my project atm because I wonder if this project is corrupt. Specs here, project file attached.

Device name    JIM-SURFACE
Processor    Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-1035G4 CPU @ 1.10GHz   1.50 GHz
Installed RAM    16.0 GB (15.6 GB usable)
Device ID    0CE4C994-68F9-4C76-892D-5A40B403AF26
Product ID    00342-23734-03541-AAOEM
System type    64-bit operating system, x64-based processor
Pen and touch    Pen and touch support with 10 touch points
 

Variations on an End CORRUPT.cwp

[Noel Borthwick]

Can you send us the project file? Something is likely failing when loading the UI resulting in the strip being partially initialized.
Also which build of CbB are you running? Have you checked if this happens in the prior release (09) as well?

[jkoseattle]

@Noel Borthwick Project file is included in previous post. I updated last week at some time, and after I was having the problems, updated to the latest again this morning. Same issue both versions.

[jkoseattle]

 .

Edited November 9, 2021 by jkoseattle

[Jonathan Sasor]

@jkoseattle It seems like something got corrupted in the project file itself. What seems to work to recover it is if you delete the synth instances that tracks 4 and 12 are using from the Synth Rack View. Then the console will open correctly again (and you'll need to re-add the synths.