Feature Request - Build In Sampler

[Starship Krupa]

On 9/4/2020 at 7:46 AM, Jim Roseberry said:

You've got your choice of many different 3rd-party "Samplers" (virtual instruments) that are FAR more advanced/evolved than a rev. 1 release.

FWIW, I don't want to be tied to a proprietary sampler, with limited function, that only works with one host software.

Just to clarify, Jim, Xel and I and the others aren't talking about something like Sampletank or Kontakt or sforzando, where you load up these big sample libraries and do orchestration or scoring.

We're talking about a "pad sampler" or "phrase sampler" thats primary use is loading, manipulating, and playing shorter phrases and one-shots. They're used heavily in electronic and dance styles, from hip hop to ambient. Yes, there are plenty of freeware versions, BUT what they lack is integration with the rest of Cakewalk.

Use case: I record a spoken phrase from a movie that I want to use in my downtempo song. I drop it into a Cakewalk audio track, trim and do whatever I want, crop it down to a nice tight clip. Then I right click on the clip, select "map to CakePad" and it sends it to the first available slot in the sampler, which is already mapped to a MIDI note. Cakewalk clip to mapped pad in 2 clicks.

This would also be an option in the Loop Construction View and other relevant views.

Once I get my clips loaded up, within the sampler there may be any number of options for playing back the phrase, such as reversing the playback, triggering, re-triggering, looping, pitch shift, stretch, warp, filter, velocity-volume mapping, etc.

The point of "integration" is to allow the user to use the tools that are already in Cakewalk to work on the sound, then easily send it to the phrase sampler. The phrase sampler uses tools and algorithms that already exist in Cakewalk, it can pretty much mostly act as a UI. It wouldn't even need to bounce the audio to a file to do it (although that would of course be an option).

The user doesn't have to learn an entire new interface, it's just another way that Cakewalk can edit and play clips. I don't like to armchair quarterback the development process, but I imagine that this would take fewer coding resources due to the fact that it's just a GUI front end for existing features. These are all things that CbB already does in different ways, just combined in one place and integrated with the rest of the DAW.

If I want to do the above now, with the existing 3rd-party tools, I'd have to load the sound into Cakewalk, do the editing, export it as an audio file, then open TX16w, load the audio file from my ever-expanding collection of samples, make sure it's mapped to the correct note, and then I can play back my phrase. If I haven't used TX16w in a while, there's a "getting back up to speed" curve while I remember how to use it. I'd also want to make a subfolder of the project to keep the audio clips, and I'm not sure that they would become part of a .CWB.

It may not seem like that much extra work, but how about doing it 24 times? That's a lot of bouncing.

BTW, why do you think having this feature would mean "being tied to a proprietary sampler?" It wouldn't disable the loading of other VSTi's. We're not "tied to a proprietary compressor" because Cakewalk comes with a compressor.

"Most DAWs come bundled with at least one fully-featured sampler" -MusicRadar primer on samplers

Here's a brief video demo of Mixcraft's Omni Sampler, and the whole demo only takes 5 minutes:

 

[Keith Lane]

The work around is a pain in the *****, I'd like a dedicated sampler that 100% works in cakewalk. without having to worry if someone else has also bought that plug - in. Not having to sign in to a programme, not have there extra DRM eating up the resources, not worrying if the latest update nullifies my working method. Time cakewalk grew out of the 4 piece band mentality and woke up to the fact some musicians have moved on from that and use / need tools to emulate other aspects.

[User 905133]

On 9/6/2020 at 6:18 AM, Starship Krupa said:

Just to clarify, Jim, Xel and I and the others aren't talking about something like Sampletank or Kontakt or sforzando, where you load up these big sample libraries and do orchestration or scoring.

We're talking about a "pad sampler" or "phrase sampler" thats primary use is loading, manipulating, and playing shorter phrases and one-shots. They're used heavily in electronic and dance styles, from hip hop to ambient. Yes, there are plenty of freeware versions, BUT what they lack is integration with the rest of Cakewalk.

Use case: I record a spoken phrase from a movie that I want to use in my downtempo song. I drop it into a Cakewalk audio track, trim and do whatever I want, crop it down to a nice tight clip. Then I right click on the clip, select "map to CakePad" and it sends it to the first available slot in the sampler, which is already mapped to a MIDI note. Cakewalk clip to mapped pad in 2 clicks.

I have been trying to understand what people in different posts mean by sampler.  The first sampler I used was the Emulator II [IIRC]. I was aware of some other manufacturers from that era through to the Emulator IV / EOS / Ultra series and then the software versions [Emulator X, X2, X3].  I have seen a few other software "samplers" and sample playback software ROMpler/RAMplers.

Are the plug-ins/programs  mentioned in paragraph 1 above sample playback programs, or (A) are they full-fledged samplers with (1) the ability to record audio from any source (analog or digital), (2) the ability to digitize/tweak/modify/edit/apply built-in functions to/etc. recorded audio, (3) the ability to load previously recorded/tweaked/etc. audio "samples" [including short waveform snippets and longer sections of audio that some might call phrases], (4) the ability to map samples (including standard techniques of layering, keysplitting, multisampling, etc.) across the full range of musical keyboard (or any part of the keyboard), and (5) the ability to build those samples into patches/presets/programs to be played in realtime on MIDI-capable devices, with (B) a complete and fully implemented multi-timbral  synth engine (with a minimum of 32 midi channels, each channel having a full set of controllable parameters) including an extensive system exclusive implementation?   

When I have seen "sampler" used in this thread (above) and other similar threads of late, it is not clear that people have in mind the same thing that I think of as a sampler.  Your explanation above is an excellent attempt to start addressing the question, "What do people here mean by sampler?"

If all the proponents agree that they are requesting a fully integrated phrase sampler, that is something different. Unless I am mistaken, a major overhaul of the media browser might be useful as a "phrase sampler" with some totally new functionality including the features of a full-fledged audio recorder/wave editor. For the synth engine of this new, integrated sampler, I am not sure there has been sufficient discussion of what that synth engine would look like. Personally, I would like it to have sliders and full access to FX (not unlike Z3ta), a complete multi-channel midi implementation, and sample/preset mapping. But those are just my personal preferences.

Your use case example also helps to clarify what you mean by phrase sampler (and how you might use it).  The recording and editing of audio you describe and then the dropping of the audio into slots and having those mapped to single notes definitely describes some features of traditional samplers, but there are so many features not mentioned. 

I can imagine that with all the variations, the developers could come up with something and then we'd find out (1) its not what everyone was clamoring for and (2) it is not a complete sampler.

BTW, before I discovered Cakewalk had risen from the ashes, I bought the "pro" version of another DAW that included a full-fledged sampler.  Compared to the hardware and software samplers I have used, it was horrible to work with, not very good when it worked, and way over-priced. 

Thanks for the clarifications I cited above and for the extended list of features you'd like to see. Maybe it would help if all the possible features of a phrase sampler (or complete sampler/editor/synth package) were in a poll and people could choose the 5-10 features they felt were most important to have in an integrated sampler.  If there is an option to convert samples and presets from a variety or formats used by traditional and recent software samplers/ROMplers/RAMplers, that would be one of my preferences.  

 

 

 

Edited September 11, 2020 by User 905133
to add a line I forgot to type up (about extended features in the part of the post I didn't cite)

[Xel Ohh]

@User 905133 we are defiantly talking about A... Fully fledge Sampler....

And @Keith Lane i feel ya 200%...

The foundation is there they just need to put it all together... I believe bandlab can do it.. Just hoping it comes to pass...

[abacab]

10 hours ago, Xel Ohh said:

@User 905133 we are defiantly talking about A... Fully fledge Sampler....

Then I assume that you want something like NI Kontakt?

[User 905133]

1 hour ago, abacab said:

Then I assume that you want something like NI Kontakt?

Creative Labs seems to have totally abandoned Emulator X for years with no signs that they place any value on it.  Maybe Bandlab can pick it up and give it to the Cakewalk developers? 

[Starship Krupa]

17 hours ago, User 905133 said:

Are the plug-ins/programs  mentioned in paragraph 1 [Kontakt, Sampletank, sofrzando] above sample playback programs, or (A) are they full-fledged samplers with (1) the ability to record audio from any source (analog or digital), (2) the ability to digitize/tweak/modify/edit/apply built-in functions to/etc. recorded audio, (3) the ability to load previously recorded/tweaked/etc. audio "samples" [including short waveform snippets and longer sections of audio that some might call phrases], (4) the ability to map samples (including standard techniques of layering, keysplitting, multisampling, etc.) across the full range of musical keyboard (or any part of the keyboard), and (5) the ability to build those samples into patches/presets/programs to be played in realtime on MIDI-capable devices, with (B) a complete and fully implemented multi-timbral  synth engine (with a minimum of 32 midi channels, each channel having a full set of controllable parameters) including an extensive system exclusive implementation?

Kontakt will do all of the above. AFAIK, so will Sampletank, but it is oriented more toward playback of existing libraries.  It has many features to manipulate the sounds in whatever libraries one installs. sforzando is playback-only, it uses .SFZ's. You must use a separate .SFZ authoring utility in order to be able to use the library in sforzando. The keysplitting, layering, multisampling, etc. is their purview. Each of them can map phrases, but I would consider them overkill, and for this, a purpose-made tool with a short learning curve is called for. This is not the kind of "sampler" I'm talking about.

And I may be off-base in speaking for the others, maybe they want a Sampletank-like instrument. I am not interested in that at all, I already have Sampletank. And those types of samplers are more "long game," where you spend time creating a library and then use that whole library in various projects. I don't think such a thing needs to be integrated, it's fine being more standalone, IMO.

The pad/phrase samplers that I describe usually use the DAW itself to do the heavy lifting of capturing and editing the audio, although they can take dragging and dropping from outside the program onto a pad (or "slot"). They are able to "digitize/tweak/modify/edit/apply built-in functions to/etc. recorded audio," to varying degrees, but usually at least include the ability to reverse, filter, ADSR, and trim. Again, the idea is that if you really want to massage the sample, you use other tools already available in the DAW, then click a button or use a menu that says "send to phrase sampler." Those tools should be easily accessed from within the sampler UI as well, if you want to do further editing.

So all the slicing, warping, beat matching, all of that, you just use the existing tools that Cakewalk already has, you don't need to learn a whole new instrument.

Yes, absolutely they can store presets that can be played in realtime. That's a big part of the fun! It allows the composer/producer/performer to improvise using a MIDI controller, and that improvised performance can be captured just like any other MIDI performance as well.

As far as "a complete and fully implemented multi-timbral  synth engine (with a minimum of 32 midi channels, each channel having a full set of controllable parameters) including an extensive system exclusive implementation," that's more Kontakt/Sampletank territory, but since it's an integrated tool, and therefore light on CPU, rather than multitimbral, multichannel, it would be more efficient to just load multiple instances.

Really, for anyone who wants to understand this kind of sampler, 5 minutes with that Mixcraft demo video will answer questions better than I can.

Also, you could download and mess about with Sitala, which has similar functionality, but lacks the full integration.

The way I see it is that this instrument wouldn't involve anything that Cakewalk can't already do, it would just consolidate it and present it in this type of UI. Cakewalk already has similar functionality in the Matrix, but the Matrix isn't an instrument that you can load onto a track and trigger with MIDI events, it's a separate view.

[Starship Krupa]

Another use case scenario: I download one of W.A. Production's sample packs, which always include "one hit" or "one shot" drum samples.

Instead of building a beat using them in clips, I can just drag and drop them onto sampler cells and within minutes, I have a whole kit using these drum samples. And, importantly, if I want to massage them using a stutter tool or something like that, I can load them into a Cakewalk audio track, mess around, then send the resulting clip(s) directly to a sampler pad with a right click or by clicking on the "tetris" button each clip already has in its upper right corner.

Yet another use case scenario: I've been building a song, "The Greatest Persuader," around dialog samples from the (in)famous "punk rock" episode of Quincy, M.E. At one point Quincy (Jack Klugman) and his assistant make the scene at a punk club, prompting Quincy to ask her "what could persuade a kid to act like that?" to which she replies "the greatest persuader there is. Music." So, using TX16w, I've cut those samples into "what could persuade a kid," "to act like that," "the greatest persuader there is," and "music." Then mapped each phrase to a slot. In the project, I have Klugman saying the first phrase 3x, then resolve to the second phrase. Then for the next verse, the actress' samples in the same form. (look closely and if you know about poetic metre, the phrases conform to commonly used metres, and the actors deliver their lines in metre). Then later on, I use "music" by itself as an occasional repeated interjection.

So the "lyrics" to my song are:

"What could persuade a kid/To act like that/The greatest persuader there is/Music" with a refrain of "Music. Music. Music."

This all could be done in Cakewalk using clips, but it's so much easier to have it all in an instrument and use Piano Roll to place the events. I can also experiment in real time by hitting the keys on my controller. If I have the pads set to retrigger, I can stutter it like "Mu-mu-music." Also use note lengths to truncate.

The thing is, I had to create those clips in one program (it might have been Sound Forge), then load TX16w into Cakewalk, then map them. Having it integrated would save so much work, be so much more intuitive and handy. My estimate is that being able to do the above with an integrated sampler would have knocked 45 minutes to an hour off the process. And not incidentally, the phrases would be included when saving as a .CWB.

Under the hood, within a project, CbB wouldn't even need to render out the clip, it can read it non-destructively from the original audio file, although doing a bounce to a new clip on the way would be an option, in the case of wanting to use the preset/kit across multiple projects.

@Xel Ohh, am I on track here? Is this what you want for an integrated sampler?

[Xel Ohh]

@Starship Krupa that sounds good to me... I use so many different samplers now I get confused as which one to use.. Serato Sample has the best flow for me to chop samples.. Sitala has the best options for drums but you cant change octaves with it in the piano roll... Komplete Kontrol has nice wave forms can change octaves in the piano roll and cut and glide features easy to use but can only load one sample at a time... Tx16w is a really good and complete sampler but.. Very complex and has a huge learning curve... Grace sampler is ideal and does pretty much what you want for a sampler but feels like its missing something everytime I use it... Mpc Beats has all the feature you would want in the sampler but a little bit of a learning curve to get started something integrated thats not to complex and can hold multiple samples and be able to change octaves in the piano roll would be the ideal sampler... But not getting my hopes up that this can or will be done at all... Dont let us down Bandlab we believe you can do it....