John Vere

Not sure about some of the others but the BT Brickwall limiter totally failed my tests. Even at a moderate setting of -2 db with out being pushed hard the music came through at -0.5 or worse. It was the bottom of the score card of 10 other limiters I tested. Boost 11 actually did very well. I excluded all the BT plug ins a while ago. Im sort of against pre sets of any kind. You never learn anything about how to use the tools and what the settings are for. I guess they can be a starting point.

The BT effects came with Sonar. I don’t think they come with Cakewalk by Bandlab

I agree this thread I think is one of those that the question would be why are my songs quieter than commercial releases. Answer- learn about mastering I actually gave you one of the tools that you would try in my first post. Boost11. A brick wall limiter will raise you RMS level and put a cap on the peak level. In my signature is the link to my tutorials look for any on the topic of mastering or mixing

Yes, understood. If you Google the Question " Is DIN Midi faster than USB Midi " you will find no real answer to that question. Therefore I tried my own tests. As I said I clearned up the information in the video to make it easier to follow and keep it short. One of the tests was to answer the above question. My A 49 has both Midi and USB connections so it was easy to test this. The USB latency with 1 note played was 3ms and the MIDI pathway was 4 ms. No big deal really. Without a robot I could test what happens with a 4 note chord. I thought about making a set of fingers out of wood but decided that was getting carries away. But of note was the Roland MKB 200 which was made in the mid 80's had a latency of 9ms. My conclusion was things have improved since 1985. INteresting feature uf the MKB is it has 3 Midi outputs which would have solved the daisy chaining issue for many people.

Question. Does the strummer generate midi notes? If it does wouldn't it work to just drag those back a bit to sync it up? I might need to figure this out someday as my hands are slowly becoming arthritic. Electric guitar is OK but I'm slowly loosing my grip on the wider neck of my acoustic.

Thanks for your input and I understand and agree with all you said. I wasn't initially trying to measure the latency of the Audio output of the drum module but it was connected so what the heck. I was actually surprised at it's higher reading. As you say it would have to be due to internal processing of the Brain. The above quote is another example of DAW weirdness that happens from time to time. Example as I was doing the test I made the mistake of opening a few web pages to look things up. When I returned to Cakewalk all the test results went crazy and made no sense anymore. There was very high numbers in the latency reading for everything. I restarted computer and it all returned to normal. Thanks I found a good source of info on good old wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_hardware My mention of this due too reading different discussions on the Midi Associations pages about developing Midi 2,0 to take advantage of USB C. Absolutely was part of troubleshooting the mystery of the phase reversal. The external loopback passed with flying colors. But the Motu's internal Loopback was early by 1.5 ms. I assume this is due to Cakewalk sees it as an actual external audio source and it's not being calculated by the driver properly. I think I'll contact Motu and ask. I was wondering why when doing screen captures if I accessed both my mike input and the Loopback mix to record Cakewalk there was a latency echo. 1.5 should not do this but things get complicated when running 3 apps that use audio simultaneously. I'm glad you mentioned this as I kept finding old articles that said part of midi latency over USB was because USB midi had more jitter than DIN midi. I guess the reference to jitter is trying to describe a screwed up data stream. Yet another deep topic with no solid info forthcoming. I'm sure the answers are out there but the topic is not THAT import to me as I have a very good Midi set up with both old hardware and some newer USB stuff. Some of my stuff is real old like the Roland 505 which I can still sync to Cakewalk. I get my moneys worth out of most of my older gear because it was well made back then. Go figure the only broken device I have is the newest. The Akai Synth station. What a POS. Laggy response bad drivers and now a dead key right in the middle and they don't make spare parts like Roland, Korg and Yamaha do. I've fixed dead keys before it's easy with new key sensors for $12 a strip. I'm glad I got it cheap. Anyway I've completely revised my plan for this video and I'm just in the process of filming (screen capturing) this morning. I decided to break the topic into 2 videos. First is focused on Midi Latency and how people can " attempt" to measure their systems latency and what to look for and how to fix it. Then the second video on Audio Latency and how to measure that. UPDATE: I posted the video at the top of the thread. Appreciate any feedback.

Talk about a timely post. I’m just screen capturing stuff about latency measurements and I noticed that little green line and box. Now I actually can give it a name and start using it. You never stop learning stuff here.

Boost 11 comes with Cakewalk and that can give you about 6db boost without clipping. But beyond that it will start distorting. Loud max is free and can be pushed a little harder. Just curious but is your master bus clipping? If it is and your monitoring system is not loud enough then a few things to look into. If you are using an audio interface do you have your settings correct on the front? If you are using on board audio do you have that turned up in Windows? Or is it your trying to use computer speakers? Go to the dollar store and by a set of studio size headphones.

This post came to mind yesterday after I had recorded a vocal track and realized after I was finished 1 hour later, that I had failed to turn my monitors off! argh! This made me think of a hardware solution that I don't think exists. A switch on the front of your audio interface to choose output.

The hilarious part of all that is in the end the best ones turned out to be what I already had on hand. As you say the CA 2A is a gem and I do use the pro channel module very lightly ( 40 /40 ) on vocals and guitars just to catch little peaks and when used lightly the CA 2A doesn't add noticeable harmonics. While the CA 2A was only available to Sonar users of the past, it lives on as the PC 2A Leveler which is exactly the same module minus the side chaining which is what the OP needs. Then the 2 other "clean" compressors are my Focusrite Red 2 compressor and the Melda M Compressor. Those are both not exactly free as the Red Compressor comes with a purchase of any Focusrite products and Melda compressor is part of the free bundle but I paid $50 for the upgrade which unlocks extra features. Therefore both of these had a much better lineage in development and I guess you get what you pay for stands true even with plug ins. But many I tested where certainly well designed and a few of those I'm keeping for when I have time to be brave and try something different. But what you find is by design a Compressor is a Compressor. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the old Sonitus stuff as example. It tested very high in scores. But it's days could be numbered.

First Thrillseeker I would not have bothered to download as I rarely use EQ. And when I do I use the most excellent Pro Channel EQ or the Scarlett Red. And it's promise of adding something would scare me off anyhow. That's exactly what I don't want. I'm of the camp from the old sound on sound days so I still only record parts that are already the way I want them to sound. The exception to that for me is acoustic guitar and after a 35 year quest I think I finally found the right guitar, PU and Mike combo. So I'm redoing a lot of older tracks. Anyhow I'm not interested in "Enhancing" my sound. But I'm sure others are. I might try it just for fun and curiosity. I'm a free VST sucker. Then Density mkII I immediately recognized the name. I just looked at my 6 pages of notes I made. Density was among the first batch and from what my notes say it was a distorted on a full mix and it added a lot of harmonics which would explain why. I think when I first started testing I was tossing out any that distorted a full song. I realize that is personal taste and many people seem to like what is falsely called color and is simply distortion. It's the DAW communities over obsession with wanting to sound analog. I was originally questing for a vocal compressor so distortion was defiantly out for me. I slowly was adding more free compressors and limiters to my list as the weeks went by and people made suggestions. I drew the line at 50. But I think I tested over 80. I of course avoided 32 bit as well as many were just plane boring designs and some even crashed or froze Cakewalk when you dragged from the browser. You slowly catch on that there are many Bedroom VST creators and they put these out there hoping for donations. Density probably should have stayed on my list but was a part of my earlier high grading. The first title was 35 free compressors. The testing took over 2 months and I made a video about that as well- https://youtu.be/REZ5H6GMWZY I still need to clean out my plug in folder.

Exactly. Last on my list would be isotope. There are a lot of great free compressors and a lot of them support side chaining. That's what its all about, Ducking or pumping a bass line from a kick etc. I made a video featuring 50 free compressors

A test of that would be to export the project as aMidi file. First go to preferences Midi and uncheck all midi outputs. Open the Midi file Don’t import. Open. That will give you a clean project with Just midi and the TTS-1. See if there’s any issues. Now midi track by midi track swap out the TTS-1 for the VST’ instruments you were using one by one. See at which point you get crackles. If all is still good Then start adding any VST effects and see what happens. I think using a USB hub is not recommended by most manufacturers. It says that in my Focusrite manual. It could well be the problem but seems strange you had same issues with old system too. Might just be aVST all along.

Update on the reverse phase issue. I would appreciate if anyone else could test this. I determined it only happens when I loop through Cakewalk with input echo on. The test is simple 2 mikes. One to record a transient sound. I hit my desk with a drum stick. The other mike on your monitor speaker. You have to set your monitoring so the mike on the speaker is not being sent there( obviously) The 2 mikes feed two tracks in Cakewalk and you see if they are out of phase. Thanks.

Ok huge progress and it seems you have all correct equipment now as well as your settings seem fine as well. Only weird thing I see is I was to understand there is no such thing as 32 bit audio interfaces yet? They are normally 24. But I guess this is new. I assume you still are using the same computer so possibly something in the USB bus is creating this crackle. Bad cable, or ports. I had to install a PCIe USB 3 card in my old computer to use my Motu interface and I do believe it was cracking as well. So big possibly especially if that interface is bus powered.

Nobody trust bundles even though I think they are fine but over the year many people have lost their work when it was saved that way. It’s usually a person who save as a bundle years ago and now it won’t open. I have back up CWP file in project folders that are from 2005 that open fine but just with warnings of missing plug ins.

A few things I can think of. Open the project by browsing to your storage drive and opening it using the CWP icon inside the projects folder. Personally I would never trust that Clean Audio Folder Utility It might have been what caused this. And when you used "save as" if you somehow didn't Check the "copy all audio with project" box this could also happen to the new version. It might be too late but here's a few ways to stop this in the future. If you are re doing tracks -Always rename them with a system . Like " Guitar lead Feb 24" Sounds dumb but it sure makes it easy to look in the audio folder for the track you want. Always name tracks BEFORE you record them so they will be stamped. They are also date stamped. When I'm closed to finished a project I make a "save as" copy with date in the name. I open it and then I export all the audio tracks as stems 48/32 bit no dither, no effects. I then delete all the originals which are probably broken up into a zillion clips and replace those with the stems by dragging from the export folder as complete tracks end to end. I then close the project and delete all the audio files except for the stems which will have different names or I could use the date. Now that back up copy is nice and tidy, way smaller in file size as well as could be easily transferred to another DAW. I also back them up as Midi files.

Absolutely. This is something I just figured out last summer when I was asked to play keyboards and I learned how to control Cakewalk from my Controller. Everything in Cakewalk that you can press or move has Midi learn built in. You access this by Right Clicking on the button or fader. In this case I right clicked the Master faders Mute button This dialogue will open Select Remote control and this dialogue will open Now you can choose a note on event or a Controller . Now just select Learn and either wiggle, slide or hit the control you want to assign to the function and bingo that will now toggle the Mute button on and off. I just tested it using C7 at the top of my keyboard and it works. This will be saved with the project, It is not global to other projects. And you must always have the keyboard controller connected before you open the project. Once I discovered this I am now lusting after a Controller with a lot of knobs. Mine only has 2 ;(

From what I gathered reading up on Midi 2.0 it's not just the new specification but then if tied in with USB C technology we will not suffer data log jams, Jitter or any of that. Or at least that is one of the goals. It seems these issues alone where the reason the Midi Association has been working on the long over due update. Using Midi 1.0 is like dial up internet. The thing is on a simple set up with a USB midi Keyboard controller and a Laptop I doubt if those people care or would even notice midi latency itself as it will be under 6ms or something like that ( not talking audio latency , different topic) . But set ups like your's are where every ms and data packet lost is an issue. USB 1.0 replaced the serial ports on our old PC's. And we have slowly updated that system since. We are now at USB C which was developed because of the demand put on the USB systems now needing faster data as well as more power to charge stuff. I have a pair of heated socks that have USB mirco B connections to charge them. If I had spent more money I could have got the ones with USB C. My Motu interface has USB C. Here's another one to ponder! Is Midi 1.0 is stuck on USB 1.0 specs? Guess what I tested too.. If using a different USB port made any difference. My computer is 12 years old so only had USB 1.0. I had to add a PCIe card with USB 3.0 when I bought the MotuM4. I've always had my controller plugged into the same old port so I swapped it to the PCI card. It seemed to shave 1ms off. I'm going to look at USB C PCIe cards out of curiosity. Remember my Motu is using that very same bus for it's midi and audio. Yes this I think is also important info for people who are using USB Midi devices. I mention it every chance I get in my tutorials. In my 2 video about Midi set up this is demonstrated immediately. I show how to open device manager and check your driver status. I also show how to open Show hidden devices and make sure it's not a big mess because you've been swapping to different ports and have now excided the 10 device limit per port. My Roland keyboard and my Yamaha drum kit both have there own midi drivers. I also have a Akai controller that uses a generic driver. All is I can say is there is a difference in many ways. The Akai has noticeable sluggish response which was verified in testing. And a minor detail, but you cannot turn it on and use it if Cakewalk is already running. No problem with the Roland or Yamaha. Cakewalk just politely asks if you want to connect but the Akai requires completely shutting down and restarting of Cakewalk can't find it. An interest observation is open the Midi 2.0 specification PDF and on the list of people contributing is folks from Native Instruments, Roland and Yamaha. Part of what they are doing is working on a new Microsoft Midi 2.0 generic driver that promises to be a big improvement. Don't hold your breath. Microsoft is involved. But it somehow make me feel safer knowing Roland and Yamaha are involved in this.

Got it. I guess mine are very isolated type and I can't really hear them until I turn the monitors right off, then it's like a distant sound, but that's a good point. If your monitors are turned down low the headphones could be interfering with what your hearing in the room and especially ones like yours. If you have a midi controller you could set this up using Midi learn to solo one bus or the other. If you activate the " exclusive solo " button in the Mix Module of the control bar then it would be a single keystroke.

But you still have to put your headphones on and press a button. I put my headphones on and turn off my monitors using my interface. I fail to see where time is saved here? Unless your interface doesn't have any front panel controls. Mine is sitting right beside my mouse pad. I need it there as I'm always making changes as I work including Main Speaker and Headphone levels. I'm not saying you idea is bad or anything just seems that using what's already there would be just fine and you develop habits on where to reach when you need something to happen, just like turning on your windshield wipers. Your method sounds like putting that function on the touch screen of the Audio system to me. I guess I just like the feel of Hardware ?

Thanks for that Greg this is super import part of the quest. I tested that best I could using my Roland A49 which has both USB and Midi connections. USB won the race by a whopping 1ms in this case. Pretty rare to have both options. This was one of my questions that I came up short on facts when searching on line. Once again this is impossible to determine as there could be many factors involved. Example- I will assume my Motu Audio interface uses a good quality Midi driver and I used a 3' long good quality Beldon Midi Cable. But if I had used a Cheap interface that used generic midi drivers and a cheapo 10' Midi cable the results might have been very different. I wish I could prove this theory but I don't own a cheapo Midi interface. I even thought about ordering one off Amazon. I do own a Akai Controller that uses Generic Midi drivers and it was about double the latency on the Mike test. But that's not enough data to make blanket statements and there could be cases of Microsoft's generic driver outperforming a Roland or Yamaha driver, No if any reliable info is available to me so far.

I didn't want my OP to be 3 pages long so many detail of what I have been doing are not mentioned. They might be part of the video but this is where I'm at. I only want to clearly include facts that would help people troubleshoot the midi lag issue. This is including not only the obvious audio part, but the cases where the Midi system it self can be involved. And thanks for posting the link to the thread, Those sort of things seem to be the only information sources, old forum threads both Sonar and Gear Space. That's when I started snooping around the info from the Midi Association. And I am quickly determining that as a whole, every midi set up will see slightly different results, so my demonstration in the video of how to test might be of use to others who wish to test their own systems. Therefore the need to double check my information is correct. The Hump- One issue is to actually determine Ground zero of the stick hitting the pad or keys. I eventually figured out that that hump is the Swish of the drum stick passing in front of the mike which is 1" from the Pad. I had the same weirdness when hitting a keyboard note I had to learn to have my finger on it then press otherwise the sound of the key moving gets recorded before it hits bottom. The world is a different place down there in sample land. I was very carful about leakage, the mikes as close are they are to the Pad and speaker, plus input echo off, plus Direct monitoring off etc. Only other thing gets printed is the metronome turned way down so it's pretty obvious. The Phase reversal- I noticed the phase reversal when I was looking more at the transient peak of the wave to determine the timing differences. I immediately jumped out of my chair and turned my monitors around to check the wires. All is good there. Now this becomes another time suck while I try and figure that out.

I always have at least 4 copies all on different drives. The main back up drive is in the computer so only a quick click to “save as” and put it there. Only downside to this is when you see your start screen the next day there will be 2 versions of that project there on the recent list. My habit to avoid working on the wrong version is to always open from the Existing projects tab then I know where I am. Another way would be to always include the date in the back up versions name

What works for me I as just use a”Save As “. And put it in a different location. It will only save stuff that was being used and all the garbage is left behind.