Cakewalk and Behringer X Touch

[Bassfaceus]

RE Azslow 3

thanks for trying to help

 

 

 

 

 

[JnTuneTech]

11 hours ago, Bassfaceus said:

i can use both surfaces together and have the mini just for controlling

VST knobs

Yes. As mentioned in the beginning. -Unfortunately though, there is no "fine" control that way, as you have found.  I have no idea if that is possible.

[Bassfaceus]

thanks for that helpful response JuTuneTech.

I was wondering if i could map the control key on my keyboard to a button on the MINI.

as you know holding the control key and mousing produces the FINE movements..

Thanks

 

 

 

 

 

[JnTuneTech]

43 minutes ago, Bassfaceus said:

I was wondering if i could map the control key on my keyboard to a button on the MINI.

Not specifically something I know of. Perhaps someone else reading this may offer some other perspective, some kind of MIDI CC to keyboard input mapping app perhaps?  I wish I could help more.

[Glenn Stanton]

maybe a rotary knob controller is more of what you need for VST manipulation rather than the more track and transport type controller? e.g. (no longer made but this is the idea) Behringer | Product | BCR2000 https://www.behringer.com/product.html?modelCode=P0245

 

[azslow3]

20 hours ago, JnTuneTech said:

Yes. As mentioned in the beginning. -Unfortunately though, there is no "fine" control that way, as you have found.  I have no idea if that is possible.

 

10 hours ago, JnTuneTech said:

Not specifically something I know of. Perhaps someone else reading this may offer some other perspective, some kind of MIDI CC to keyboard input mapping app perhaps?  I wish I could help more.

Please tell me if I have failed to explain something, or you just don't want to use 3d party tools (even so in the second post you have nothing against that) or you for whatever reason just don't want use my tool(s). No problem, I will just shut up

But for Behringer X-Touch Mini I have already posted the link: https://www.azslow.com/index.php/topic,377.0.html

It implements plug-in ACT control (apart from the rest) and supports coarse/fine changes using the leftmost bottom button (labeled as "MC", I call it "Shift"). As momentary (so opposite to current resolution when turning encoders while the button is pressed) and locked (pressing the button alone toggles current resolution).
"Coarse" and "fine" resolutions can be changed to taste (as the whole functionality of the preset).

Cakewalk Surfaces can trigger any keyboard keys, including "Control". Standard Mackie surface plug-in does that. In AZ Controller you can generate whatever computer keyboard input you want (f.e. BC2000 preset use that to open/modify/apply tempo change dialog, not used in mentioned Mini preset but can be added in no time). 

Noticing computer keyboard modifiers are pressed is not supported by API (but can be done on Windows level, that is one from not many possible features which are currently not implemented in AZ Controller, there was no evidence that can be useful...).

BTW there is Mackie preset in AZ Controller as well, with ACT support. That was  "a prove of concept" only (I was testing I can implement complete Mackie plug-in logic as a preset for AZ Controller), so it was not tested intensively and has some logical "bugs" (will not break the device or corrupt project, just some minor differences). But I guess it is possible to use it in practice (I have never tried since I don't have the device nor its clones).

 

[JnTuneTech]

3 hours ago, azslow3 said:

But for Behringer X-Touch Mini I have already posted the link: https://www.azslow.com/index.php/topic,377.0.html

It implements plug-in ACT control (apart from the rest) and supports coarse/fine changes using the leftmost bottom button (labeled as "MC", I call it "Shift"). As momentary (so opposite to current resolution when turning encoders while the button is pressed) and locked (pressing the button alone toggles current resolution).
"Coarse" and "fine" resolutions can be changed to taste (as the whole functionality of the preset).

-I apologize, and I can only say that when I was answering the OP, I was stating my own knowledge and experience. -This entire thread is one I am currently bookmarking, in fact, as between the info herein from you & msmcleod, much of which is new to me, I have a lot to learn by trying some of this out.  -I in fact have both the X-Touch (full) and the Mini, and as yet have not had full experience with using your AZ Controller, nor even the customization of the built-in ACT in Cakewalk lately.   -Again I apologize, and @Bassfaceus I do hope you re-read through this as well, as it does look indeed like there are many good options to try here. I know I will be trying some of it out soon on my own system.

And certainly, @azslow3 - I would not wish for you to stop responding with your valuable information & assistance (i.e. don't "shut up" !) 😬

Edited July 20, 2023 by JnTuneTech

[JnTuneTech]

4 hours ago, Glenn Stanton said:

maybe a rotary knob controller is more of what you need for VST manipulation rather than the more track and transport type controller? e.g. (no longer made but this is the idea) Behringer | Product | BCR2000 https://www.behringer.com/product.html?modelCode=P0245

 

Yes, I think the drift here is to use a smaller device for external VST control already.  (I have the BCR2000 as well, but it's a bit clunky, and not small though 🤓) I think a lot of folks already do this as well, and there are many modern products out there, and more every day.  Some are super expensive (SSL, etc. - yikes!), and some are cheap plastic built for failure... but I digress! - Both the OP and I have the X-Touch Mini.  That one has the same type of 8-knob - button layout as the older Behringer BC series (so as to easily map the MCP options), but with only 1 row of rotaries & "VPOTs", as well as 2 rows of buttons, 1 fader, and a layer switch to assign things to 1 more alternate set of parameters.

Besides the issue of getting either ACT or something like the AZ Controller set up for each individual's system and tastes, I am still always hoping to find some logical way of addressing things starting with some sort of logical "common" set of parameters (yes, I know azslow...), so that I can switch between similar plugins without so much setup disparity. -And, I am still learning these options myself, as most of it is buried in reams of text documentation and setup screens, so it's a learning in progress, to be quite clear.

One of my experiments, with either (or both) the Cakewalk ACT customization or the AZ Controller plugin, will be to take similar use plugins, starting with several "typical" (I know, I know...) EQ VSTs, and see if I can define a list of most common functions (EQ band, Q, level, - master i/o level, what have you), that I most always will start from, so that I can always assign those to the same rotaries on each VST template. The goal of course, to be able to minimally control several similar plugins with the same layout on the controller, leaving extra & plugin-specific controls for the mouse.  -I know this concept is nothing new at all, but I have a lot of things to learn, and I want to concentrate on achieving it within Cakewalk first as much as may be possible currently.

One other consideration - the current small-factor controllers have little or no labeling capability on the device itself, and for me that increases the multi-mapping learn curve. -I have to admit, I can only even type text still using a lot of hunt-and-peck, so that is my particular curve limitation.  -I guess on the X-Touch Mini, there seems to be some room between rotaries & buttons that might be something I could apply a custom label strip to, but I'm not sure yet.  But anyway, @Glenn Stanton -yes, getting the right type of controller is probably first, and then for me anyway, almost more important is trying to find some common programming setup(s) easily enough that I don't give up!

[azslow3]

For BCR2000 there is most complicated configuration ever made with AZ Controller: https://www.azslow.com/index.php/topic,301.0.html, check PDF in the second post of the thread.

Labeling controls is not practical, especially if you map many plug-ins and have several layouts for the same controls.
It is better use second (or third) display and permanently put build-in AZ Controller display window there. The size of each "cell" is not limited as on Mackie/X-Touch controller, so you can see meaningful names even for lengthy parameters. If you don't want or don't have place for big display, there are many small HDMI displays  which you can put just behind the controller.

As I have mentioned before, Cakewalk has tried introduce "rules" for auto-assigning common parameters in ACT. From my experience that is not working well.
Manual assignment for each plug-in takes up to several minutes only, so mapping 20-30 plug-ins does not take more then several hours.
Just don't forget to use AZ ACT Fix. That will guarantee your time will not be lost (you can try to backup files manually, but that does not solve other problems).

PS. Installing AZ Controller and testing it with Mini, Mackie and BCR2000 (with pre-made presets) does not take more then several minutes. But read the manuals for presets, layouts are not trivial.