GreenLight

1 hour ago, Noel Borthwick said:

You should be able to test with any export buffer size now and not get timing problems or lost MIDI. The numbers there are just dividing the range of values to give you some convenient multiples to pick. You should be able to manually enter any in range value for the buffer size if you wish.

Note that VST2 plugins and some VST3 plugins do not support intra-buffer automation so if you have plugin envelopes you may notice aliasing at higher buffer sizes.   

I am sorry if this has already been explained: why is a bounce buffer size user selectable, I mean, what is the use case or benefit of changing that?

Thanks!

Thanks @Jim Fogle!

All methods listed above are currently still valid in Cakewalk, they differ due to different pre-requisites and needs, like if your sidechain plugin is inserted on a track or a bus. But method #1 (Will's method) is my new favorite, as it's quick and only generates a bounce of the original track (of course with the sidechain plugin effect printed), but it skips bouncing an unnecessary copy of the sidechain source track, as method #2 does.

Sidechaining tracks from kickdrum tracks isn't probably as common as it used to be, since doing the same with a VST ducking plugin instead is a lot faster and simpler. And with such plugins it's easier to freeze audio tracks and VST instruments without considering any dependencies to other tracks. But if one needs to feed the sidechain input with something more irregular than a kick drum, then "real" sidechaining is still the way to go.

29 minutes ago, Noel Borthwick said:

Yes bouncing with source category buses works because the logic for bouncing buses is different from bouncing tracks. Track bounce only includes the signal flow from selected tracks  whereas buses automatically take into account the upstream signal flow. The export process behind the scenes rewires the entire project routing based on the mix options.

I plan to extend similar behavior to tracks and aux tracks when exporting but it will require some work.

I see, thanks.

I'm humbly hoping you'll consider simplifying sidechain bouncing a little in the future. Until then, the clever trick of bus-bouncing works pretty well. 😃

10 hours ago, Will_Kaydo said:

https://youtu.be/AX-NNen14rs

 There you go. Sorry for taking this long. Was busy with a Client.

Thanks a lot, @Will_Kaydo! 👍 Seems to work great! 😀 Ah, the concept requires that the track you want to bounce ("original track") is routed to an intermediary bus, before going to Master, and the you bounce with the intermediary bus as source. (If it goes straight to Master, you will get the sidechain source audio mixed in.) I think this is a faster and cleaner way, than the way described in the Cakewalk documentation.

To not hi-jack this thread, I have continued that discussion here. Thanks again, Will!

I thought I'd post this for a discussion and for easier referencing in the future.

There are several ways to bounce tracks and buses (tracks are easier!) with side-chained plugins. I think this one that @Will_Kaydo told me about is the easiest (see embedded video at bottom):

1. Bounce tracks with SC plugins using Source Category set to Buses -
   It requires that the track you want to bounce ("original track") is routed to an intermediary bus (say, "Synths"), before going to Master, and you select your "Synths" bus as a Source Category instead. If you would do this while the original track goes straight to Master, you will get the sidechain source audio mixed in (assuming it's an audible track).

A couple of other ways I've done it in the past:

2. Bounce tracks with SC plugins using Source Category set to Tracks - This is how I've done it for years, with sidechained plugins according to the Cakewalk manual. In the Bounce to Tracks dialogue, select both the original track and the sidechain source, and set Source Category to Tracks. It works, but the downside is that you get two new tracks, which is slow and also a slight nuisance to have to delete.

3. Bounce buses with SC plugins using Source Category set to Entire mix and a silent sidechain source - Create a copy of your source (say, a kick drum track), set the Output to None (this will generate warnings at project load, though), or turn down the fader and set send level to pre-fader. Use Entire Mix as Source Category. The pros are that you can bounce it without it being audible and you can easily create pumping/ducking effects even when your kick is muted. But the downside is the increased project complexity. It was a few years since I did it this way, and nowadays plugins like the LFOtool are a way easier.

Hm, did I get all things right? Please chime in if you have thoughts or improvements.

Will's great video:

4 hours ago, Noel Borthwick said:

Sidechains and aux tracks are a tricky problem to handle automatically when exporting stems. We havent done that yet.

I definitely appreciate that!

I'm brainstorming out loud now: it could be a semi-automated process, so in the Bounce to Tracks dialog, there could be a "Sidechain sources" box, where you could select any side-chain source tracks that should be accounted for in the calculations, but the SC sources themselves would not generate any new bounced tracks (which is my main gripe with the current SC bouncing paradigm). I would love that, but would it be feasible? 🙂

1 hour ago, Will_Kaydo said:

Hey GreenLight. Are you asking how to export individual sidechain tracks? 

Hi. 😀 No, I was just hoping for a slightly more effective way to bounce tracks with sidechained plugins...

Sure, the process isn't super-complicated as it is: in the Bounce to Tracks dialog, select the original track plus the source track that feeds the sidechain, pick source category "Tracks". But in addition of the original track, Cakewalk also bounces the sidechain source, which slows things down and also inconvenient...

In this very exciting update, have you Bakers considered and/or improved the scenario of bouncing (and exporting) tracks that use plugins with side-chains fed from other tracks?

When archiving and future-proofing projects, it is something I constantly have to deal with and it is a bit awkward currently. If it could be streamlined a little, I would be most grateful. 😀

A fantastic update, great job!

2 hours ago, msmcleod said:

FWIW, you can kind of do this already if you've got JBridge installed by checking "Load with JBridge Wrapper" within the plugin's options.

Nice trick! 😀

Is there any way that kind of protection could be feasible to implement as default behavior in Cakewalk, to protect from all plugins? I suppose it might be to much overhead...

2 hours ago, Jonathan Sasor said:

Usually crashes where the app just disappears as described are plugin-related. These types of crashes are why we implemented "ExceptionHandlingSeverity" as an option you can enable in the Initialization File section of the Preferences. Default value is 1, you can increase this to 7 if you're experiencing a crash, and it should then be able to get a dump file if it crashes again. At that point we can take a look at the dump file and if there's anything actionable on our end. In the meantime, normal saving of the project should work fine even if it subsequently crashes (the project just might not appear in the recent project list as that is populated on normal project close). 

I love the work you've done on the exception handling side! 👍

I'm just thinking out loud here - is there any way plugins could be hosted "separately" or in sandboxes, to prevent them from crashing the entire main application? Or would that be too much overhead or too complicated to implement to be feasible? 🧐

49 minutes ago, Kevin Perry said:

TyrellN6  needs a fix for the VST3 in CbB - crashes on insertion (VST2 version works fine - and is also a fine synth).

If you want, send an e-mail to u-He at support@u-he.com and describe the problem and product version numbers.

I hadn't heard of TyrellN6 actually... and I see it's freeware. Is it good? How is it compared to, say, Diva?

Thanks for the u-He message, good to see that they apply the Cakewalk fix for their whole range.

I agree, u-He has a great attitude, makes for great teamwork. 😀

On 8/11/2021 at 8:23 PM, TheSteven said:

The is a Diva bug fix for Cakewalk in this release:
 

August 10, 2021

Diva 1.4.5 (revision 12092)

Fixed Bugs:

• Fixed Cakewalk setting instance parameters to default on project reload

Woho, this is great news! That annoyed me so much.

It was in fact yours truly who reported this very annoying bug to u-He and then Noel helped them solve the Cakewalk interoperability problem in Diva. 😊

Apparently u-He has some logic in Diva that checks whether the project had finished loading, that didn't work well with Cakewalk and that messed up the loading of the quality settings. Noel came to the rescue!

This bug has now been fixed by u-He in the Diva v1.4.5 update last week, fantastic! Now I don't have to manually change the settings of all my 6 or 7 Diva instances to "Fast" and "Best" every time I open a project...

Thanks @Noel Borthwick for helping to solve this together with the u-He team! 👍

Small tip✔️ – For years, I have had a custom keyboard shortcut for "Start/Stop Audio Engine" bound to ALT + X. It has become second nature for me to stop the audio engine when not needing an immediate response from Cakewalk. I also always stop the audio engine before saving a project, that way saving goes faster as well.

Is idly running plugins and instruments an issue in all DAW's?

I know the VST3 standard does include some kind of feature for plugins to to not draw CPU cycles when no audio is passing through... wasn't support for that implemented in Cakewalk recently?

7 hours ago, Noel Borthwick said:

Edge webview is a component that is part of windows but is not necessarily installed by every user so we need to run the MS installer. It is not = edge browser.
Its like saying the chrome runtime is Chrome. Cakewalk start screen has used the Chrome embedded framework (CEF) for a decade now and we didn't need to announce that. Its a part of the requirements to build the tools in CbB. We will likely deprecate CEF soon and only rely on edge webview runtime since that is more modern.

Thanks for clearing it up, Noel. 👍

It will hopefully ease the mind of @Sergey Levin and others.

3 minutes ago, Milton Sica said:

Would it be something similar to Visual Basic's WebBrowser control?

Yes, I think it's a similar concept, judging by a quick glance. I'm not a developer though, so someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

1 hour ago, Sergey Levin said:

Microsoft browser imposing is not just a bad thing.

This is an attempt to force the installation of an unnecessary application with a bad reputation among specialists.

This is how Trojans behave, for example.

-

I draw your attention to the fact that active work with the Internet while working with ASIO often leads to failures when the sound wheezes or Cakewalk/Sonar crash for no apparent reason.

My misunderstanding is caused, among other things, with this.

If you add questionable programs that work with the Internet, your program is rapidly losing its value in my eyes.

Cakewalk staff, please correct me if I'm wrong here:

As I understand it, Cakewalk by Bandlab uses Microsoft Edge WebView2, which is technology from Edge.

Short description from Microsoft:

Quote

The Microsoft Edge WebView2 control allows you to embed web technologies (HTML, CSS, and JavaScript) in your native apps. The WebView2 control uses Microsoft Edge (Chromium) as the rendering engine to display the web content in native apps.

Note that Microsoft also says that the full Edge browser isn't required when using applications that use the Edge WebView2 Runtime:

Quote

• WebView2 Runtime doesn’t install Microsoft Edge (full browser) on the device and doesn’t require Microsoft Edge to be installed on the device.
• When WebView2 Runtime is installed on the device, no change is made to the user’s default browser selection.

...I would assume that goes for Cakewalk too?

Edge (Chromium) was rolled out automatically to Windows users a year ago. I respect that not everyone wants it on their systems, but I don't find it that controversial. And in the near future I assume it'll be part of the next Windows version like Internet Explorer has been, without much controversy.

But Maybe Cakewalk's reliance on the Edge WebView2 components could/should be declared more upfront when installing Cakewalk? The most important thing is that users are informed in advance.

11 hours ago, Jim Fogle said:

One point made earlier is the Undo history includes both editing and mixing moves.

What if the user could choose which Undo history to follow; editing Undo, mixing Undo or both Undo?  The user could select similar to the way snap or loop settings are turned on and off.

Look at it from a new user or beginner viewpoint,  who is going to know from the beginning @GreenLight's rules for Undo?

Interesting concept!

The easiest concept (and the one I'd prefer) would obviously to just include track parameter changes in the normal undo history. No check boxes to check, no undo histories to select.

Ah well, I'm just beating a dead horse here... 🐴

But out of curiosity, I think I will start investigating how many other DAW's don't support undo of a simple volume change of a track.

On 6/29/2021 at 2:43 PM, Noel Borthwick said:

Just because a couple of other DAW’s do it isn’t an argument for doing it. 
Tying fader movements (mixing operations), to the undo system is mixing and matching two completely different workflows. 
One is changing the data and the other is signal flow. They are two complete independent things and IMO should not be coupled.
People do little changes to vol/pan interspersed with editing all the time. Having it in the same undo history will be very error prone and undersirable. If there was a mixer undo stack it would be completely discrete from the editing stack.

Mix recall is a much more powerful system for managing fader state. And as pointed out we have a single per track level of undo for mixer state already.  Also saving and restoring gain has little meaning when you have envelopes inthe project since they override the mixer when automation read is on. It would have to do it in offset mode which few people use anyway.
Too many downsides to this which is why we don’t intend to do it.

Interesting viewpoint. I see both actions of raising a track's volume via fader (without volume envelope) or via automation as mixing - there's no difference for me. So having a separate undo history would, for me, be very confusing: "did I change the volume via automation on track X or via fader on track Y? Only one is undoable".

The paradigm of "If you change it you can undo it" seems more logical to me. As it is now, if I mistakenly scroll my mouse wheel when hovering over a Vel+ or Volume parameter instead of the track name in Track View (on a track without automation) then I accidentally change stuff, and it's often hard  to figure out which track it was and I can't undo it. And I probably haven't saved a mix recall in advance either... (This is not my main use case, it's just an example.)

As you say, saving and restoring gain has little meaning when you have envelopes. I see the most important aspect for track parameter undo to be parameter changes on tracks without envelopes. I have a lot of envelopes and automation, but not on all my tracks. I constantly use a lot of Volume and Vel+ (MIDI) track parameters without automation.

I will be humble and admit this of course my view of things. And sure, just because a couple of other DAW's do it isn't an argument for doing it for you. I just wanted to point out that I'm not alone with my view, there are some high-profile apps that share it.

How about an opt-in for "Include track parameter changes in undo history"? A small checkbox in Options that harms no-one? ✔️

All the best!

10 hours ago, buildanax said:

I downloaded the "early release" this morning.  The new features seem to be working fine, however, when I attempt to export files in either .wav or .mp3 format the program crashes and instantly closes.  I have opened several different projects and attempted to export a file and it happens every time.   I have used Cakewalk almost daily since around 1993 as part of how I make my living and this has not been happening at all until today when I installed the new update.   I recorded two full soundtracks today for a client with numerous VST plugins used in each song.  When I did the final mix on each project and attempted to export it, it crashed every time.   It looks like I will having to do a "rollback" to the previous version until this is fixed or until I can figure out what is going on.   Any suggestions would  be appreciated.  

Make sure you send the dump file to the Bakers, hopefully they'll figure it out! 😀

Also, it's a good habit to not apply any system or software updates during an important project or when having deadlines. I usually wait until I know I have "downtime" and have time with potential bug-hunting and/or rollbacks.

Hope your rollback goes smoothly! 🍀

7 minutes ago, Kevin Perry said:

If you keep the tight coupling, then playing back anything with an envelope would (logically) dirty the file. 

Hm, I'm not really following your logic there... since the envelope is the master that controls the absolute value, why would it be logical that the file is dirtied (changed) by mere playback?

7 minutes ago, Kevin Perry said:

0dB (or equivalent - eg. center for pan) is the correct value to reset the control to - it's what is set when the track is inserted, so is the default; there's nothing else logical to use.  I've been bitten by this "feature" numerous times and wondered what has happened to my track's volume.  It's a bizarre way to have it work, as is, in my opinion.

I am so used to the current regimen, but this arguably makes more sense. 😀

4 hours ago, Starship Krupa said:

What I want ain't rocket science: I want any action that would set the "dirty" bit (that is, put an asterisk after the file name in the header to let you know it hasn't been saved) to be Undoable. I know I said "for mixing moves," but that's just the area where I most often get bitten.

The asterisk tells me that the program is tracking those actions, so I would like to leverage that.

@Noel Borthwick, for whom would this be confusing? I find current behavior confusing as I find it hard to remember what actions are undoable. I came from Mixcraft, where pretty much every action is undoable, including plug-in settings. No confusion: I did something. If I hit Ctrl-Z the action will reversed. Up in the Edit menu, it says "Pan adj." next to Undo/Redo.

Of course, as with all such sweeping changes to behavior, for those who only want the limited set of actions to be undoable, this would be a settable preference rather than a mandatory change.

I totally agree with your arguments, @Starship Krupa. It's how it works in Ableton Live as well.

Does anyone know how it is in for example Cubase or Logic?

Interesting discourse, but I'm sorry, I don't really feel that strongly about it or that it's really that connected to undoing mixing parameters...? 😊

18 hours ago, Kevin Perry said:

If the track is playing back and has an envelope and the slider is not armed, the slider has no effect on the sound - it effectively always tracks the envelope value.  But...it sets the "absolute" level as well, right?  So which is it doing at any one time?  And what should I undo under these 3 different conditions?  I don't know.

I think of it like this:

• Track parameters such as Volume and Pan always have an absolute value
• If there's no automation, the "slider" sets the unchanging absolute value - and also represents it
• If there is automation, then the envelope is master - and the "slider" still represents the absolute value momentarily, always at the "now time"
• If there is automation and you move the slider:
  • Without recording: there is no "real" point, as the envelope is master
  • With recording: you record new/overwrite automation

Offset mode for volume is great - although I think the offset should be visually indicated in the normal mode somehow.  Offset mode for pan I never need, so I can't comment on your findings, but I do see it could be messy to understand... 🥴

The fact that deleting an envelope sets (leaves?) the parameter to what the now time happens to be on is maybe not intuitive, I guess it's just something one has to learn. But I can't see a better option either? There is no magic or "metaphysical" default value to fall back on... 😄

Agreed.

In connection to this, my suggested feature "A MIDI input chord analyzer module in the Control Bar" could be tied to this default device.