Olaf

On 2/25/2022 at 6:25 PM, John Vere said:

there’s a size limit on files posted directly here so no videos and best to put GIF on giffy

You'd be surprised to know - I know I was - that certain mp4 encodings take far less space than GIF files, so it's actually more space efficient to save them that way. These videos all add up to a few megs, so I'm well within the quota. When it's exceeded, I'll delete them. Fingers crossed these (huge) problems get solved by then.

On 2/25/2022 at 6:25 PM, John Vere said:

the only way I can change the tempo of a song is to first export all the audio as stems first.
Then I delete all audio tracks and drag the exported audio back to where they came from.

Thank you for the advice, I can't use it, though, since my problem is having different tempos on different parts - and not definite ones, at that - which I need to move around and tempo adjust to fit the new places in the song. So exporting everything as single take stems is exactly what I can't do. But I've settled on a definite structure - still think I may need to adjust the tempo on one part, though, but nothing major. Just hand stretch until it sounds as "right" as it can, and then rely on Melodyne for the final touches.

@Noel Borthwick continued

Select Tempo envelope node unavailable on hover over node + Draw click on node deletes different node

Moving Arranger section fails if a wave clip exceeds the section area, and moving Arranger clip doesn't move the Tempo nodes.

EDIT: added these two clips:

Comp trimming clips trims the start of the next clip.

Comp Trimming a clip moves the wave content inside the clip.

On 12/24/2021 at 5:21 AM, Jimbo 88 said:

What I think your are trying to do is create a scenario where CbB detects beats in all your audio clips and adjusts everything to match a new tempo...

No, it actually involves performing some simple math. It knows what the current tempo is, it knows what the new tempos is, just needs to recalculate the clip length by multiplying it by the ratio between the two.

That said, @Jimbo 88, @David Baay, thanks a lot for your input. I gave up trying to use "follow project tempo", and just used clip stretch instead. Tried to match the clip end to the normal grid line, and it worked relatively well. Not 100%, cause the stretch ratio only has 1 decimal, but close enough. And on that happy note, I've finally managed to decide on a song structure. Still have a little rearranging to do, for the new section order, but nothing spectacular.

@Noel Borthwick I have some new irregular behavior clips, working with the Arranger and the Tempo Track. "Arranger Exclude" is permanently unchecked in the Tempo Lane.

Tempo envelope nodes not copied with Arranger sections

Copying Arranger section doesn't copy Tempo change & doesn't observe track order. Pressing DEL with Arranger Section copied attempts to deletes Synth

Drawing node on Tempo envelope deletes different node

On 2/23/2022 at 5:47 PM, David Baay said:

I will not have time to look at the project for a while, but I can tell you from some of what you described that a key to getting this to work as expected in this use case is ensuring that the Follow Option is 'Auto strech' before you enable Follow Project. There may still be issues, but that will address a lot of them.

Thanks!

On 1/11/2022 at 1:48 AM, msmcleod said:

You can change both the online and offline algorithms for audio stretching in preferences:

Thanks, I have them both on Elastique Pro, and that's the behavior I get.

@Noel Borthwick Here is the project download link, as a .zip file, The project file is inside the folder. I couldn't export it as a bundle project, because it's got the clip stretching active on many of them.

https://we.tl/t-84601Ma8Vt

The vocal is a sketch recording on the phone, in gibberish, so pay no particular attention to it.

There are all sorts of weird clip behaviors, as well, related to trimming, resizing, once "follow project tempo" is activated. You can find the gifs I've made here:

https://we.tl/t-bk0LP7aW8q

If you can't make sense of something, or have questions, shoot me a message.

There's also irregular behavior that I've noted before with Softube Tape, which then stopped after a few updates, and now happens with all kinds of plugins - namely various transport related commands (stop & play, or moving the playhead/cursor on the timeline during play) reset or move the parameters within the plugins around, It almost makes me reluctant to stop playing or move along the timeline.

These plugins are:

Embertone Sensual Saxophone (Kontakt 6.7) - resets the "*****" parameter = play velocity, reverb & distortion;

Waves H-EQ - EQ bands jump up randomly;

Sonimus SonEQ - resets the parameters to 0.

They're all documented in the Gif folder.

There's also the recurring problem of the Arranger Track not showing on project open, sometimes not even the Tempo Track, and having to be rechecked every time.

Variety of Sound NastyDLA Wet only setting is not remembered.

The Browser/Synth Rack/Help window sizes and order in the right side dock are not remembered.

Very rarely either of these settings will be remembered, but I couldn't tell you how and why.

If these were solved in the next releases, that would be a massive improvement.

Thanks!

On 12/16/2021 at 3:43 AM, Tim Smith said:

I didn't know this existed. Thanks for the FYI !

Three out of four times when I think this program doesn't have something, it turns out it does and I never knew how to get to it.

 

in many instances, they could be named and made to be accessed more intuitively.

yes, i agree that every setting or choice that you make for your project should be saved with it, no matter how small or in relation to what.

10 hours ago, Jimbo 88 said:

Ok forgive me, there is a lot to wade thru here, I might understand the issue, I might not.

I do a lot of audio design, vo recording, sound effects etc..to picture or absolute time, then score (compose) music to picture (or even just the audio).  I change tempos all the time.  Some audio i want to stay right where it's at and other elements i want to follow the new tempos (tempi?).

So the trick is choosing an element's time base.  Is it musical or absolute.  you can change that in the clip and track properties on the left.  So let's say I have placed a musical audio clip in the timeline as part of the composition, say a rhythm guitar.  It starts in measure "X", but now the tempo has got to change.  I "bounce to Clips" the guitar part making sure the clip is exactly at the start and end of a measure.  I can change the tempo any way I want, then time stretch the guitar part back to the end of the measure that it was at.  I have done this many times always successful.   If the time stretched audio is what I like.. I bounce it to clips again, cause i found that working with a lot of time stretched elements will cause  apps to crash...this is true in Protools, Cubase, etc.

What I think your are trying to do is create a scenario where CbB detects beats in all your audio clips and adjusts everything to match a new tempo...that might work if you convert all your audio to a groove clip.  that seems to be fraught with issues.  I have seen this work, but never always successful ...in many other Daws.

I hope I helped and did not waste your time.

Best! Good Luck.

Thanks, I was thinking of something along the same lines, but couldn't figure it out. I'll take a closer look at what you said, later, and try it step by step - and get back to you.

14 hours ago, bdickens said:

You could work everything out with virtual instruments and then replace them after everything is sorted.

that's a good idea, but i've got guitar solos in there, and vocals, and those are hard to emulate.

i've grabbed the bull by the balls, and went old style: assessed a tempo for each part, on the fly, hoped it'd work, took a deep breath and re-recorded everything, except for the bass, which i'll have to redo later. if i later decide they don't work, it's back to the drawing board. but i might simplify my life for the clean guitar arpeggios.

11 minutes ago, Noel Borthwick said:

Our team is out for the holidays but we'll follow up when we're back in Jan. The most important thing would be to supply a link to a project file (with audio) that exhibits the problem so that we can look into it.

Thanks, I'll render a project file with the audio embedded, and send it to you. Happy holidays!

2 hours ago, Lord Tim said:

Ultimately, CbB may *not* be the tool for how you like to work at the end of the day - it's not out of the question to do one process in one DAW and then move to another for something else. In this case, you could sketch out your tempo/meter map elsewhere, once you're ready to track properly you would export a MIDI file with the tempo info in it, open in CbB and do your tracking in a fast and familiar environment. You wouldn't run into any of these issues because the timing changes would already be locked in before you added any audio.

From what I gather, the timebase that everything works to goes back to how it was originally implemented in the old Twelvetone days and has been enhanced over the years since (Bakers, please tell me to stop talking now if I'm way off base!) so there may be limitations with how tempo works with certain operations currently. It'd be good to know either way what's going on.

That being said, I've personally never run into this kind of problem because my workflow is quite different, despite doing music that can get fairly complex with tempo and meter changes, so how you're using it may shed some light on something that needs to be looked at.

Ultimately, it should be able to stretch audio right when changing the tempo on different parts - without resizing, trimming issues, clip jumps, doubling clips, etc. These are things that shoulnd't normally happen, regardless of the workflow. Most DAWs do that, certainly Reaper and Reason do it well, CW does it, too, officially, except that it doesn't work.

2 hours ago, Lord Tim said:

That's happened to me on occasions too. I solved that by uploading to somewhere like Imagur or Giphy and copying in the embedding link - that usually does the trick.

Thanks, I took your advice, and it worked like a charm. ?

I've replaced all the webp files with gif links.

https://giphy.com/channel/Tryggvasson

for those who about to comment before seeing what the problem is - for terror of getting infected.

10 hours ago, InstrEd said:

Olaf wants to do it but CbB is not really the DAW for that style IMHO

If this poor implementation of things it actually purports to do were changed, it would actually be my DAW of choice, but this way many functions which are actual functions of the DAW - so they shouldn't be a stretch - are barely functional.

I've tried various stuff - Harrison, Reaper, after coming from Reason, but all have their limitations. They don't misbehave like that, but are limited or overcomplicated in other things. I'll look into them some more. Still waiting for Luna for Windows. Reaper actually has a knob by which you can vary the tempo - absolutely no issues - no clip rearangements, no trimming problems, no clips jumping 500 bars, no nothing.

10 hours ago, InstrEd said:

if you don't like the advice given just nod and move on

I normally do, until the guy gets butthurt that "he was doing it wrong" - it was about him after two lines - with an answer that didn't address the problem in the first place. You know, dropping by just to let people know they're doing things wrong - without knowing what they're actually doing, or bothering to check what the problem is - and he's doing them right ?.

Hey, @bdickens congrats, man!

@InstrEd This IS preproduction for me. You get to decide on tempos beforehand when you have a band to rehearse with, and have all the parts and structure figured out before recording. That's how I did it, too, when I was in a band - and if the guy had left smugness aside, he would have known that's normal - nothing revolutionary about it.

But since I record everything myself, the playback in the DAW IS my band, and rearranging parts and playing them at different tempos is exactly how  I can replicate figuring the parts out with "my band" - especially this song that comes out in pieces - the hardest to take shape of all my work - and now impossible, thanks to CW not working.

But regardless of all this, I don't think giving advice on your workflow - even if doable or relevant - is needed to justify reporting bugs in the program ?.

I fail to see how those (huge) bugs would be alright on a different workflow. It's like some people want the programs to work badly, just so they can prove some (imaginary) point. Egos get inflated, the problem stays.

Anybody want it fixed? I do. And, objectively, I think it should be.

7 hours ago, Lord Tim said:

I'm not going to download any file I don't know what it is

Unfortunately, not knowing - or even caring - what something is doesn't stop people having opinions on it these days.

7 hours ago, Lord Tim said:

Just FYI, those are .webp files which basically are a Google replacement for JPG

You'd think people would know that. At the very least, not imagine somebody is posting stuff on the forum just "to infect their computers" - probably protected by three separate antiviruses. If do, at least not imagine opinions.

7 hours ago, Lord Tim said:

it might be more accessible to people here to transcode them over to JPG or animated GIF to make them easier to check out

I've tried to upload them as GIFs first, but the upload failed. AVIs are too large, so this was a compromise solution.

7 hours ago, Lord Tim said:

t'd be good to narrow that down to see if it's actually a CbB thing or local to your machine environment

I've thought about it, too, on several issues, but they get repeated on different Windows versions, and different hardware. Besides, it's hard to imagine that that sort of behavior, if you check it out, could be caused by anything other than CW itself.

10 minutes ago, bdickens said:

So, I must be doing it wrong?

dude, i don't see the point of your comments. particularly since the downloads show you haven't even bothered to check what the problems are. you might find it shocking, but this post is not about you, and seriously, it's late, i'm tired, and i'm tired of people speaking not about issues, but about their ego, and always trying to prove something to somebody, no matter whom, what or how related, to show how clever they are. you might be doing it wrong, you might not, really not important, and don't really care. this post is about something else. if you've missed it the first time, again, regardless of how you do things, it's about problems that should be addressed. so take care.

41 minutes ago, Base 57 said:

Clearly from your last 2 posts you have not explored the use of Control Groups. Specifically "Relative " and "Custom " Groups. 

It's not just about adjusting controls up and down. They can be set to move at different rates or even opposite directions. 

You can group unlike controls so that (for instance) dragging down the fader pushes up the reverb send.

I haven't, I'm not gonna lie. But I cannot imagine any scenario where you'd want to do that with bulk ranges. And if you start individually adjusting the ranges for each, it defeats the entire purpose.

7 minutes ago, bdickens said:

This is so much easier if you figure it all out in pre-production and then lay out your tempo map before recording.

it's not, that's the point. new parts keep on coming, i don't have a definitive structure, and i need to figure out how they work together and lead into each other, tempo wise. which i can't do, because i can't change any tempos. even with a lot of damage control, and preparing and arranging the audio, the function doesn't work. besides all that, i don't think any of this should be normal behavior, whichever way you do it.

https://www.bigfishaudio.com/Celtic-Instruments - several formats, including Kontakt - for both Uilleann Pipes and Scottish bagpipes - not great to my ears, but good enough - plus a bunch of other instruments.

For Uilleann pipes alone, I highly recommend https://audioplugin.deals/dicky-deegans-uilleann-pipes-by-xtant-audio/. Bought them not too long ago, they were really cheap, and have been very pleased ever since. Slap a ton of delay and reverb on those, you can't go wrong.

6. Trimming clips automatically splits and re-pastes adjacent clips.

https://giphy.com/gifs/HQK7DsURC6i3hEvhvG

7. Trimming clips occasionally causes the clip to be duplicated on another take.

https://giphy.com/gifs/jCfWDhOkXVCj9Mw7Hz

8. Moving an Arranger section in the timeline doesn't respect/copy the tempo, even with "Arranger Exclude" unchecked.

https://giphy.com/gifs/vd4A9nOfIvAUxtmkVI

9. Adjusting the tempo envelope on specific sections adds new, unnecessary nodes, that need to be deleted every time.

I don't have a clip for this one.

Questions/suggestions:

a. why is it necessary for a clip to be selected first, for the "follow project tempo" setting to be applied, instead of the setting being automatically applied on the clip that is clicked on? It's an unnecessary complication.

Suggestion: apply the setting for the clip that is clicked on, without need to select it first.

b. why is there a need to switch to "Audio Transients" viewing to select "follow project tempo" for a clip?

Suggestion: make the setting available in the default "Clip" viewing mode.

c. why does clicking on a tempo section automatically select the entire envelope? It's rare that you need to move the entire envelope, particularly since the overall tempo is more easily chosen from the tempo value/tap box.

Suggestion: make the section you click on the automatic selection for adjusting the tempo, on the first click. The second click selects the whole envelope.

Additional suggestion 1: clicking and dragging up or down in the tempo value box (both the Tempo Track and the Control Bar) increases or decreases the value.

Additional suggestion 2: Right clicking in the tempo value box (Control Bar) opens the Tap Tempo dialog (instead of Menu>Project>Insert Tempo Change) - needlessly cumbersome.

Many times the View Arranger Track setting state, in Track View doesn't get saved with the project. That's really annoying.

Same thing with the Browser/Synth Rack/Help windows order and size - need to be redone every time.

Basically whatever you save with the project should be there when you open it up - it's a simple principle. Is that so hard to fix?

5. Trimming the clip to the left automatically results in expansion to the... right, that can be anywhere between hundreds and thousands of bars long.

https://giphy.com/gifs/RDOyUdYz7zfKL4x2pb

Hi,

I'm working on my first project involving several tempo changes, and as I'm trying to seamlessly transition form part to part, and determine the best tempo relations between parts, I've noticed that you can't get audio to follow the tempo variations.

Basically, the entire function of of audio following new tempo values is non-functional. Not only that, but there's completely erratic behavior for the audio clips, that emerges as you set you set them to "follow project tempo".

These are just a few of the behaviors. There's more of them, but I couldn't replicate them all as I was recording the gifs.

1. The "follow project tempo" setting is not stored, for individual clips:

https://giphy.com/gifs/HdnHq1xUoenDk0y6le

2. The "follow project tempo" setting check occasionally returns an "invalid measure" response, even if the clip is entirely within the same tempo.

https://giphy.com/gifs/WZyiNZfSAXcHpq0AgN

3. The "Clip" mode (take lane) displays the transients.

https://giphy.com/gifs/u6rjFZjeCf78YH3IXt

4. Once "follow project tempo" is activated the clip automatically gets expanded (silence), even if no tempo change is applied. Furthermore, it cannot be properly resized, and trimming it down to size results in a clip automatically trimmed to fractions of the size.

https://giphy.com/gifs/d8jwxxL2TqqRzaUTEB

5. Trimming the clip to the left automatically results in expansion to the... right, that can be anywhere between hundreds and thousands of bars long.

https://giphy.com/gifs/G1GW0OS8zn7XjUR7Na

8 hours ago, Base 57 said:

This for one...

And because Control Groups have relative offsets. 

And because Control Groups work on controls other than volume, such as sends and pan.

There are other reasons. 

You can use inserts for the FX, plus, even if you use sends, you just select all the tracks and adjust one, holding CTRL - you don't even need aux tracks, let alone vca faders - and the effort for doing that is lesser than setting up a vca track.

For the pan part, again, aux tracks do that - they do have pans, you know. Not to mention automation - copy-paste. But why would you ever want to move several pans at once?

3 hours ago, Light Grenade said:

This lets me compress/saturate the drum submix without affecting the reverb.

If you use a send for the reverb you can accomplish the same thing. Personally I like a little saturation on the reverb, though, just as much as I use on the dry, enough to make it more brilliant and less harsh - which is always a good idea. Besides, since the reverb is fairly low leveled in relation to the dry it's not gonna saturate that much anyway.

On 12/11/2021 at 6:41 PM, Base 57 said:

If Control Groups would follow automation envelopes written on a single grouped track there would be no need for VCA 's.

Currently you have to write (and edit) automation on all of the grouped tracks. 

why don't you route everything to an aux track and automate that one? that's your vca fader, for you, and it's been around since forever, in any daw.

Expanded to bar 3,700 now. I haven't even touched it since the last time. I haven't met a single program other than CW, to do that. Horrible management of this program. Appalling. Such a shame. It would have been great in so many respects.

I think I might have to throw away everything I've recorded, cause it's completely out of alignment and won't get trimmed, because of a glitch in the follow project tempo. Or reset all the clips to unfollow the project tempo - which essentially means not being able to adjust the tempos, not to mention hours of work lost.

Anybody had this experience? Did you find a way to solve the follow the tempo mismatch?