ptheisen Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 It is very odd, unless the explanation is that the pricing plan is in place: the Backstage Pass subscription. The very few responses received from people like Noel have been carefully worded. They said they are considering "other purchase options", but did not specifically mention perpetual licenses, so the other purchase options might be different forms of subscriptions. For example, just for a specific product (Sonar or Next) not the whole Bandlab ecosystem. Unfortunately, for those who are averse to subscriptions, including myself, it is definitely the trend. Most companies are trying to steer their customers in that direction to one degree or another. Some companies are giving incentives for going subscription so that the customers feel like it is their choice, instead of feeling like they are being forced into it. But the end result is the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulo Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 19 hours ago, Mr No Name said: why don't everyone chip in a few quid and we'll take over cakewalk how it used to be Even the people who actually make the software didn't fancy taking it on when it was up for grabs, so that should tell you all you need to know about the viability of that idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSistine Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 @Bapu, @PavlovsCat, @Jim Roseberry, @Starship Krupa: I know that I am very awkward/clunky in explaining what I think, but I tried to express that the lifetime debacle is not the reason of my anger to the current company! It seems I have failed! The major issue that I have, is with some statements that were told in the first 2 years when BL had taken over Sonar. E.g. it was said (by Noel) that the purpose of the re-authorisation (for a free product) was only aimed to get information about what version of CbB was actually used. But recently they use the shorter timed re-authorisation to push/urge users to buy the backstage pass! Also in the beginning they gave the impression that we don't have to worry, CbB will always be free. But yes, you may state that I have been naive! It is true! In the end I am lucky compared to a lot of other CbB users that don't want to commit themselves to a sub, because I still own Platinum and X3! I can live with them (even X3 supports almost everything that I need, however I will miss some minor improvements)! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitekrazy Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 2 hours ago, Soundwise said: I think Bandlab/Cakewalk should do whatever it takes to keep the product up to date and relevant, as well as stay in the business. That is pretty hard for developers to do these days with a lot of staff. I think the DAW market peaked a decade ago and few prepared for it. Part of this was more hobbyists entering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magic Russ Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 It probably doesn't help that Gen Z is a smaller generation which means that fewer new users will take up the cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PavlovsCat Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 (edited) 20 minutes ago, CSistine said: @Bapu, @PavlovsCat, @Jim Roseberry, @Starship Krupa: I know that I am very awkward/clunky in explaining what I think, but I tried to express that the lifetime debacle is not the reason of my anger to the current company! It seems I have failed! The major issue that I have, is with some statements that were told in the first 2 years when BL had taken over Sonar. E.g. it was said (by Noel) that the purpose of the re-authorisation (for a free product) was only aimed to get information about what version of CbB was actually used. But recently they use the shorter timed re-authorisation to push/urge users to buy the backstage pass! Also in the beginning they gave the impression that we don't have to worry, CbB will always be free. But yes, you may state that I have been naive! It is true! In the end I am lucky compared to a lot of other CbB users that don't want to commit themselves to a sub, because I still own Platinum and X3! I can live with them (even X3 supports almost everything that I need, however I will miss some minor improvements)! Hey, as long as we can respect each other's views and one another, it's fine to disagree. I just think some people are less than civil -- it was several months ago when a forum member lashed out at me and called me a bunch of defamatory names (the mod deleted the guy's over the top posts) over this conversation, and I wrote the same things as Jim and Bapu. I'm not a fan of people being uncivil, but I'm a total fan of civil debate. As far as Bandlab giving the impression that Cakwalk would always be free, I don't recall if they actually made statements that the product would ALWAYS BE FREE. But, even if they heavily implied it, running a business, it's pretty difficult to sustain giving away a product free with no upgrade or cross-selling path. Sooner or later, they needed to figure out a way to monetize the product, that was easy to determine from day one - and I'm certain that I was making posts on this forum to that effect back then. I'm not feeling too good about the possibility that BandLab will go subscription only and I'll have around 100 projects in the Cakewalk format that I may not be able access unless I pay for a subscription or after Windows does an update that makes the software unusable. However, I still think Bandlab gave us all a fantastic deal by providing several years of what was basically the premium version of Sonar with free upgrades for several years. I realize that anger and rage sells better than gratitude. But I actually do feel gratitude that Bandlab has saved me several hundred dollars over the past several years. I didn't buy the lifetime deal, as it was widely known that Gibson was in trouble when that was announced and that Cakewalk could be closed or sold and those lifetime deals would be worthless. That's the risk some people take. That's the risk some have taken with Musio. Sometimes it turns out well, more often it doesn't. It's a gamble. But overall, I find that Bandlab has done very well by its customers, and if they offer a perpetual license for Sonar at a reasonable price, I'm going to become a paying Bandlab customer for the first time, which is something the outspoken minority of people angry at Bandlab for an agreement they had with Gibson have never been (a paying customer). Edited June 3 by PavlovsCat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitekrazy Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 (edited) I have plenty of DAWs where no sub is needed. Subs go up in price. How many people have ditched their Prime or Photoshop/Lightroom sub that has doubled or tripled? Will Waves ever recover from their mistake? Intro prices on subs are usually attractive but 5 years later they are not because they are not near the same price. I guess one reason why the stuff shirts favor subs is people are not responsible enough to cancel them or make a person jump though hoops just to cancel. There will always be developers to market against subs. If it became a sub only there's too much damage that only the fanboys will subscribe. Once again we will be dealing with another distribution app that makes using software more of a chore. Edited June 3 by kitekrazy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starship Krupa Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 45 minutes ago, ptheisen said: the other purchase options might be different forms of subscriptions Ah, so they could follow Audition's lead as currently the only subscription-only DAW? If I were launching a DAW and trying to decide whether to go subscription-only, I'd definitely take into consideration that Audition's licensing policy has contributed a great deal to its current position in the DAW market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antler Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 2 hours ago, X-53mph said: the question for Cakewalk should be, how do they cater for the next generation of music makers? From what I understand, I believe Cakewalk's answer to that is Next https://www.cakewalk.com/next 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PavlovsCat Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 2 hours ago, Starship Krupa said: Once I would have agreed with most of what you say here, and maybe I still do, but then Image Line and MeldaProduction had to go and mess up my theories by flourishing.😄 Of course, wide adoption doesn't necessarily mean that the company isn't going broke getting it, but in this case I'm just going to throw up my hands and admit that the owners of Image Line and MeldaProduction (same, actually, for a while now) know many things that I don't. What would I do if MeldaProduction went casters-up tomorrow? I would continue to be happy using their products as they are now. It's not as if they need to add more features. I definitely was thinking about Image Line when I was writing that (but I actually wasn't aware that Melda offers the same lifetime deal). I did write that it's not a sustainable model to continue doing lifetime software deals for the vast majority of software companies. Where it can work -- and has worked in Image Line's case -- is when the flagship software naturally has a good deal of related software that goes with it. It's not that great of a leap from the freemium model. Image Line can succeed because their model relies heavily on marketing to its customers who've made a lifetime purchase and have, I would guess, figured out a way to optimize lifetime value from those customers that goes far beyond the DAW purchase (plugins, sample libraries, etc.). Of course, it's possible for Bandlab to use a similar strategy -- I'd love it! But it is one that is riskier for the developer, I'm sure you'll agree. But the majority of software companies that offer lifetime deals are, as I described earlier, small upstarts or companies not in great financial shape, that are looking to raise capital fast and have not been successful doing so via investors or normal sales promotions. The ideal for most software companies is the subscription model, as it gives them a regular/recurring source of revenue. When I was recently looking at research for the various software revenue models. as has always been the case, overall, consumers tend to be resistant to subscription software models, whereas business users tend to prefer that model. But there's another twist. Boomers are significantly less fond of subscription software than younger generations, especially Gen Z. So there's definitely a huge differentiation in attitudes by generation. Another thing I remember from the research is that most Boomers have a mental maximum of 3 paid streaming or software subscriptions at a time. Of course, that can also be correlated with the major shift going on in the movie / TV streaming industry where subscription costs are being lowered via the addition of commercials. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antler Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 3 hours ago, PavlovsCat said: I'm not a fan of the software subscription model and likely will be using Studio One Pro over Sonar if Bandlab chooses to go subscription only. If you can budget it, get yourself a Faderport (any variety); I think it comes with a copy of Studio One Artist. You'll have an upgrade path to Pro if you want to go that way, or you'll still have a useful bit of kit (so much easier to mix with a physical fader) if you stay with Cakewalk. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PavlovsCat Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 (edited) 11 minutes ago, antler said: If you can budget it, get yourself a Faderport (any variety); I think it comes with a copy of Studio One Artist. You'll have an upgrade path to Pro if you want to go that way, or you'll still have a useful bit of kit (so much easier to mix with a physical fader) if you stay with Cakewalk. Thanks for the tip. I own Studio One Pro 3. I bought it back when Gibson announced it dissolved Cakewalk and was looking for a company to buy its assets. I've been waiting on Bandlab to announce its pricing plans to see if I will switch and upgrade to the latest version of Studio One Pro. But considering that I have dozens of unfinished Cakewalk projects, I would prefer to transition to a perpetual license of Sonar. Now if there's a flawless conversion tool to change my project files to Studio One Pro's format, this would be a lot easier (I remember back when I purchased the Studio One license someone posted a tool, it looked homespun; if anyone is familiar with it , it's still around and works well, I'd be interested in more info). Edited June 3 by PavlovsCat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
husker Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 3 hours ago, Starship Krupa said: All we need to make this topic complete is for someone to randomly mention that REAPER just got another dot release and that it's still only $60 for personal use and that you can even use it for free, and then for someone else to point out that you can't actually use REAPER for free unless you want to violate the license agreement, then yet another person to mention that they tried Studio One at the time of the Gibson debacle and never looked back. I was just thinking this same thing. It is all so tiring. You've clearly been around the block a few times. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magic Russ Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 57 minutes ago, PavlovsCat said: Now if there's a flawless conversion tool to change my project files to Studio One Pro's format, this would be a lot easier (I remember back when I purchased the Studio One license someone posted a tool, it looked homespun; if anyone is familiar with it , it's still around and works well, I'd be interested in more info). I thought I read something about Reaper reading Sonar files and exporting to that common format that Presonus and Bitwig developed. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starship Krupa Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 3 hours ago, PavlovsCat said: I own Studio One Pro 3. I bought it back when Gibson announced it dissolved Cakewalk and was looking for a company to buy its assets. You're still using Cakewalk, though, right? Me too. See what happens when you look back? If you never look back, it grants you the right (and compulsion) to comment on any YouTube video or Reddit thread about a competing product, saying that once you tried your current favorite DAW.... If your new fave is REAPER, and the competing product has a free license, such as CbB and Waveform, you are also granted the right to mention the super-secret fact that REAPER is virtually free to use because once the trial period is over, you only need sit through 45 seconds of nag screen every time you start it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rational Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 (edited) By the way, REAPER just got another dot release and it's still only $60 for personal use and you can even use it for free. Edited June 4 by Rational 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rational Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 Seriously though, I learned a few years before that 'lifetime' deal was posted that companies sometimes do this intentionally as a money grab when they're about to go out of business. They know that 'lifetime' means their business lifetime which is not that far off. But they don't care. They're desperate and just go through with it. Sadly I'd had it happen to me with another company a year or two before Gibson offered this deal. So I instantly knew what was likely coming and stayed away. I was proved correct and glad I was wary. The posts about the business ownership aspects of it are correct but for normal customers unaware, they associate the name with it being the same company if the company name remains the same. Smart management factors this in to reduce potential negative downside. So there is some culpability still in a new owner trying to leverage the old name. They do this hoping for the upside without the downside, but there's a risk involved in having just this occur where the customer still holds a grudge. Cost of doing business when re-utilizing the old name. They make a calculated decision and see what happens. Let the market decide. I'd rather see them not use the Cakewalk company name but still use the Sonar product name. That way they make a definite line in the sand in the mind of the customer (see the marketing book "Positioning") and can still leverage the loyal Sonar customer base and drop the questionable Cakewalk name Gibson created unfortunately. Otherwise some may still retain negative associations to the old company name even if owned by Gibson at the time and go down the fool me once mindset... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grem Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 12 hours ago, Jim Roseberry said: it's not BandLab (or development employees) who gypped you (us)... it's Gibson. And it's still Gibson's liability, not Bandlab's. Bandlab doesn't owe "lifetime license holders" of a Gibson product nothing. Zilch. Nada. Zero. There is no more Sonar by Gibson. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hillmy Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 Enjoy your sub guys. No need for me to even tell you "I told you so" 😛 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSistine Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 A subjective, subhuman subjection or a subliminal submerge? Does it substantially subsist? A subversive, suburban subversion IMHO! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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