Question For Guitarists

[Tim Smith]

 I know most of the basic guitar chords. I have been using a few 'cheater' chords to get by. I wasn't blessed with long fingers and since I fingerpick I can generally just play the strings I can fret on chords like F . I had been playing the cheater F which is close to the C chord and really works well. The action on my acoustic is somewhere in the middle. No where near as easy as an electric but not bad either for an acoustic. One of my buds has a Yairi and it frets SO easy.  I don't have a Yairi, so I need to play this thing. 

If I can get to a barred F I can carry that down the neck to other chords. "If".   For those who play those barred chords a lot on acoustic guitar, can you give me any tips? 

Give up guitar? I won't do that. I can get by on that cheat F, but would prefer to learn the barrs.

 

[craigb]

Don't give up!

(But, maybe you can stretch your fingers to make them a bit longer? ??)

Hey, if Tony Iommi can do it, so can you! ?

[Pragi]

1 hour ago, Tim Smith said:

If I can get to a barred F I can carry that down the neck to other chords. "If".   For those who play those barred chords a lot on acoustic guitar, can you give me any tips?

Yep, I recommend to start to play Barre chords not on the first fret ( F may).
 Start with the 5the or the 7th fret (A or B major.) cause the first fret is on  guitars often very hard to hold.

It's useful to practice the arpeggios of this chord to relax your hands during the learning session.

If you do so, try minor (Barre -) chords as well. 

Have fun.

Edited March 11 by Pragi

[mettelus]

7 hours ago, Tim Smith said:

The action on my acoustic is somewhere in the middle. No where near as easy as an electric but not bad either for an acoustic.

This is sort of subjective, but may have impact as you go up the neck with barre chords because it can throw intonation off (and become significantly harder to fret the barre). You also want to use the side of your index finger rather than face, because it is more bony and will fret the barre better.

The basic barre chords are pretty simple. E/Em is the open chord using all 6 strings, and A/Am is the open chord using only the top 5 strings. If you barre where the nut is, you can transpose that up the fret board by shifting the root (where your "cheat F" came from). Power chords just use the bottom three strings from either (same fingering) and get used a lot in music, more specifically because they only contain the root, 5th, and octave (no 3rd), so they have no innate major/minor character and can be placed on top of anything.

Back to the first part... if the neck has any bowing, the pressure required to barre a chord may increase a lot as you move up the neck. For Em, you can also wrap your middle finger over your index to get more force. Depending how hard it frets, you can also consider power chord for some things and use a barre chord based on D to do the upper strings as needed.

Also, if you are focused specifically on the E barre chord (all 6 strings), you can alternatively tune the guitar to E (or Em even) at the nut to allow you to reinforce your index finger by wrapping your middle finger over it. Em would allow for using the barre more simply (as your ring finger can make it major), but for some songs, guitars have been tuned to E (which makes all the harmonics also in key), just beware to use a lighter string gauge if you do that since you will add more tension to the neck.

She Talks to Angels is a good example of a guitar tuned to E (and use of the harmonics for the piece).

 

Edited March 11 by mettelus

[Byron Dickens]

Instead of trying to squeeze with your hand, use the muscles in your arm to pull your hand against the fretboard.

[mettelus]

Another quick comment, since I have seen fret nuts too high on enough occasions to mention this. Another way to deal with string tension is to tune the entire guitar a half step down, then work one fret higher for what you are doing now (that will address tension, but not action). If the nut itself is too tall, you can also put a capo on the first fret and tune that to standard tuning at the first fret (guitar will still be half a step down) which may address both fret action and string tension. Again, you would need to play one fret higher than you do now for the same results.

Depending on guitar model, truss rod adjustments may be possible to accommodate fret action for the the string gauge used, but that is more something to mention at this point.

[Gswitz]

Capo will lower action and make playing easier.  Tune down if you need to. 

[Shane_B.]

A barre(d?) F chord is very difficult and my least favorite to play. I don't use barre chords in general, but I guess it's important to be able to do them for, reasons?

I don't really barre all the strings. I keep my finger in an arch for an F up to Ab. I can lay my finger flat when I get up to A.

That's on acoustic. On electric I can bar flat fingered all the way down to F.

I prefer to use open chords though and use a capo a lot these days. You can really embellish songs a lot with open chords. I started using a capo as the pain in my hands got worse. It's actually very painful for me now to attempt barre chords.  And with the material I like to play, they really don't add anything to the song in terms of fullness.

99% of the time if I have a need to play a barre F, I just use 5 strings and skip the full barre and low F note.

Edited March 12 by Shane_B.

[Base 57]

11 hours ago, Tim Smith said:

One of my buds has a Yairi and it frets SO easy.  I don't have a Yairi, so I need to play this thing.

Find someone local to you to set-up your guitar. Inexpensive guitars can be dramatically improved with proper set-up. If a guitar is difficult to play, it is more difficult for you to improve as a player.

[RBH]

A decent guitar set-up is essential. If you don't understand the mechanics enough to attempt a good set-up yourself, It might be worth having a local tech have a look at it.I can tell you that it's a pretty rare occurrence that you can't make significant improvement.

[Grem]

Agree with others about getting your guitar setup by a professional. You will get the most improvement that way.

After that, lots of practice will help get you going in the right direction. There is no way around it if you would like to do it right. 

And then there are the shortcuts that you know and others have mentioned. Nothing wrong with that at all. If it gets the job done, who cares?

But to get your fingers in shape will take time, effort, and a lot of pain!! Just stick with it, it is worth it. 

[Rain]

I can do barre chords no problem but most of the time I use my thumb for the root note because it's more comfortable and more convenient in many cases. My classical guitar teacher used to hit my thumb with a ruler all the time because it wouldn't stay behind the neck of the guitar.

She had small hands, and sometimes I almost envied her - took her her whole index to hold a barre. Me, there's a lot of finger left and a lot of my hand just hanging out there doing nothing except putting my wrist in an uncomfortable position. 

And you got to use what you got. I have big hands, and big thumbs, so I try to make that work for me. 

Edited March 12 by Rain

[Heath Row]

man that's not a thumb, it's a 3rd upper limb ?

When you barre don't have your barring finger with heaps/a lot/much overhang past the E/A string, as little as possible/comfortable so if you want to apply vibrato to a power or 1st/5th chord arrangement there is little to no movement to be in position, Tony Iommi used chord vibrato a lot make the sound thicker, bigger. At the start it takes a little more instead of just slapping your barring finger across/down and not really caring all that much, but it's not that hard to get use to it, and it must add a little to your accuracy elsewhere.

and yes, with the A pattern Barres as well, any barre really, unless you have a purpose for that barring finger hanging out past its general tone making position.

Edited March 12 by Heath Row
know - no

[Pragi]

9 hours ago, mettelus said:

 You also want to use the side of your index finger rather than face, because it is more bony and will fret the barre better.

I wouldn't recommend that because if you start practicing that way, you will play very unclean.

[Tim Smith]

22 hours ago, craigb said:

Don't give up!

(But, maybe you can stretch your fingers to make them a bit longer? ??)

Hey, if Tony Iommi can do it, so can you! ?

Doing this on an electric would of course be a lot easier. Longer fingers? I think you might be thinking of something else.

20 hours ago, Pragi said:

Yep, I recommend to start to play Barre chords not on the first fret ( F may).
 Start with the 5the or the 7th fret (A or B major.) cause the first fret is on  guitars often very hard to hold.

It's useful to practice the arpeggios of this chord to relax your hands during the learning session.

If you do so, try minor (Barre -) chords as well. 

Have fun.

Thanks for your advice. I will give this a go.

15 hours ago, mettelus said:

This is sort of subjective, but may have impact as you go up the neck with barre chords because it can throw intonation off (and become significantly harder to fret the barre). You also want to use the side of your index finger rather than face, because it is more bony and will fret the barre better.

The basic barre chords are pretty simple. E/Em is the open chord using all 6 strings, and A/Am is the open chord using only the top 5 strings. If you barre where the nut is, you can transpose that up the fret board by shifting the root (where your "cheat F" came from). Power chords just use the bottom three strings from either (same fingering) and get used a lot in music, more specifically because they only contain the root, 5th, and octave (no 3rd), so they have no innate major/minor character and can be placed on top of anything.

Back to the first part... if the neck has any bowing, the pressure required to barre a chord may increase a lot as you move up the neck. For Em, you can also wrap your middle finger over your index to get more force. Depending how hard it frets, you can also consider power chord for some things and use a barre chord based on D to do the upper strings as needed.

Also, if you are focused specifically on the E barre chord (all 6 strings), you can alternatively tune the guitar to E (or Em even) at the nut to allow you to reinforce your index finger by wrapping your middle finger over it. Em would allow for using the barre more simply (as your ring finger can make it major), but for some songs, guitars have been tuned to E (which makes all the harmonics also in key), just beware to use a lighter string gauge if you do that since you will add more tension to the neck.

She Talks to Angels is a good example of a guitar tuned to E (and use of the harmonics for the piece).

 

It probably isn't you, but I'm not understanding some of this. I played a lot in D tuning but it isn't very versatile for all around playing. Some metal bands even tune to C or C#. Then we are getting into baritone territory.

Tuning in E sounds interesting if I could work around new chord structures.  Right now I play Em on the 2nd fret A and D which is easy peasy.  I just changed my strings to 52-11 s coated instead of 12s and that seems to help. I believe the setup is pretty good but maybe could be set a little lower. I say that because I have had guitars with terrible setup and you punch holes in your finger tips with those guitars. This is decent as far as I can tell.

I have been using that double finger technique for F chord on the E and B and that seems to work. Being more of a finger picker I can just play only the strings necessary If I barr all but the last string I can play a decent chord minus the lowest string. I am not comfortable with any of that yet though. I am just grabbing the F Chord with the first 4 or 5 strings. I imagine that's all some guitarists ever play, especially if you are multitasking. If I leave off the high E it's some pleasant minor thing going on that fits sometimes.

13 hours ago, mettelus said:

Another quick comment, since I have seen fret nuts too high on enough occasions to mention this. Another way to deal with string tension is to tune the entire guitar a half step down, then work one fret higher for what you are doing now (that will address tension, but not action). If the nut itself is too tall, you can also put a capo on the first fret and tune that to standard tuning at the first fret (guitar will still be half a step down) which may address both fret action and string tension. Again, you would need to play one fret higher than you do now for the same results.

Depending on guitar model, truss rod adjustments may be possible to accommodate fret action for the the string gauge used, but that is more something to mention at this point.

Hmmmm. I could just capo that 1st fret so I don't accidentally play it, but no then I would be a half step higher. That would be a brain game for me. I'm going to try it though, maybe on my old Martin. Thanks!

I am playing a Chinese made Alvarez that's a cheaper knock off of the Yairi. Not hand made and not from Japan, but it has some of that dna and a beautiful sound. I did sand the bridge but I don't think I hardly took anything off of it. I was afraid I would go too far, so it.s maybe only a couple of thousanths less. Thought about taking the bridge down some more. Hesitant to play with the nut as it's glued in place and probably hard to change if I goof it up. Most of it is probably just me needing to work up hand strength.  On a scale of 1-10 set up is probably an 8 or a 7. 

11 hours ago, Base 57 said:

Find someone local to you to set-up your guitar. Inexpensive guitars can be dramatically improved with proper set-up. If a guitar is difficult to play, it is more difficult for you to improve as a player.

Not too many of those around here in my area. There is guitar center, but I'm concerned that would be like giving a jet to a six year old to fly. I hate to say that but they don't exactly exude professionalism around here. I will give it another look though. It isn't a top tier guitar but I don't want inexperienced hands messing with it. It's my little baby, and for what it is, it's very nice.

11 hours ago, RBH said:

A decent guitar set-up is essential. If you don't understand the mechanics enough to attempt a good set-up yourself, It might be worth having a local tech have a look at it.I can tell you that it's a pretty rare occurrence that you can't make significant improvement.

Duly noted. What do you think of GC for guitar setups?

10 hours ago, Grem said:

Agree with others about getting your guitar setup by a professional. You will get the most improvement that way.

After that, lots of practice will help get you going in the right direction. There is no way around it if you would like to do it right. 

And then there are the shortcuts that you know and others have mentioned. Nothing wrong with that at all. If it gets the job done, who cares?

But to get your fingers in shape will take time, effort, and a lot of pain!! Just stick with it, it is worth it. 

Luckily I'm in the callus stages, but yeah I need to look one of those guys up and have it done right. I will sit and noodle on the thing all evening. Like I mentioned, I have had bad set ups and was too naive to know what the problem was thinking all guitarists must have leather fingers and extra muscles in their hands lol.

8 hours ago, Rain said:

I can do barre chords no problem but most of the time I use my thumb for the root note because it's more comfortable and more convenient in many cases. My classical guitar teacher used to hit my thumb with a ruler all the time because it wouldn't stay behind the neck of the guitar.

She had small hands, and sometimes I almost envied her - took her her whole index to hold a barre. Me, there's a lot of finger left and a lot of my hand just hanging out there doing nothing except putting my wrist in an uncomfortable position. 

And you got to use what you got. I have big hands, and big thumbs, so I try to make that work for me. 

You have huge hands. I always thought that was an advantage. I am more like your teacher was. Lots of advantage there in reaching distant frets IMHO. 

Like you say, gotta use what we have. One guitarist I know of is missing part of a finger and is world class. At least part of it is the fingers getting the instructions from the brain to do the right things at the right times. I'm not totally there yet. Muscle memory is beginning to get better.Thanks Rain.

12 hours ago, Shane_B. said:

A barre(d?) F chord is very difficult and my least favorite to play. I don't use barre chords in general, but I guess it's important to be able to do them for, reasons?

I don't really barre all the strings. I keep my finger in an arch for an F up to Ab. I can lay my finger flat when I get up to A.

That's on acoustic. On electric I can bar flat fingered all the way down to F.

I prefer to use open chords though and use a capo a lot these days. You can really embellish songs a lot with open chords. I started using a capo as the pain in my hands got worse. It's actually very painful for me now to attempt barre chords.  And with the material I like to play, they really don't add anything to the song in terms of fullness.

99% of the time if I have a need to play a barre F, I just use 5 strings and skip the full barre and low F note.

The important thing is, how does it sound? If it works is it cheating? Not in my book, however to advance my playing I think barrs are in my future. Just seems very different from the way I think. It's going to take some practice to get there for me. Until then I can still play. I totally get health issues. Two of my fingers were numb for awhile because of medication I was taking.

15 hours ago, Byron Dickens said:

Instead of trying to squeeze with your hand, use the muscles in your arm to pull your hand against the fretboard.

Will give that a go. I don't guess I'll break my guitar neck.

 

 

 

 

 

[Tim Smith]

21 hours ago, Pragi said:

Yep, I recommend to start to play Barre chords not on the first fret ( F may).
 Start with the 5the or the 7th fret (A or B major.) cause the first fret is on  guitars often very hard to hold.

It's useful to practice the arpeggios of this chord to relax your hands during the learning session.

If you do so, try minor (Barre -) chords as well. 

Have fun.

Thanks. I hope I didn't miss anyone. I appreciate all comments. Keep em coming !

[Xoo]

You know the definition of a gentleman, right?  Someone who knows how to play the bagpipes but chooses not to.

[Tim Smith]

6 minutes ago, pwal³ said:

He probably couldn't play guitar and resorted to something he could squeeze to make noise. 

[craigb]

What's the difference between a sliced onion and sliced bagpipes?

Nobody cries over sliced bagpipes!

[Gswitz]

Perfect pitch: bagpipes into the dumpster with one quick heave.