Intermittent Save Problem

[Johnbee58]

I've been taking notice of late that when I go to save something in CbB using the Save in the Edit menu it hangs for a few seconds and just closes the program without saving anything.  I've just lost a half hours work because of this.  Any ideas as to what all of a sudden is causing this behavior?   I'm using Trilian Bass module when this is happening.  Switching to ctrl+S seems to work OK......for now.

Thanks

John B.?

[John Vere]

That's sort of scary! You might want to turn on Auto save for now until you sort it out. I have  re -assigned my M key  to be save. I found I never used it for markers. 

But you seem suspicious of Trilian. See what happens if you swap it out for Ample P bass or SI Bass. I don't know if you've tried it, but I find Ample P bass lite the perfect bass for my music. It's free. Defiantly these days if Cakewalk crashes it's a plug in. You can submit a crash report to Cakewalk staff. They really appreciate the reports. 

https://discuss.cakewalk.com/index.php?/topic/3865-better-problem-reporting-how-to-capture-a-crash-dump/

 

[mark skinner]

This may not be relevant , but I've had  save problems on my last 2 projects. Both times it was an active Youlean Loudness meter accidently left on in the master bus.              ms

Edited May 24, 2023 by mark skinner

[Johnbee58]

Thanks, @John Vere, & @mark skinner.

I started a support ticket with Spectrasonics who asked me to send a screen shot of the diagnostics screen.  Should be hearing from them shortly.

Could it also be a Windows 10 issue? ?

?John B

 

[DeeringAmps]

What happens if you move the project to a different drive?

I would want to be sure that my audio drive isn’t having issues.

Just a thought…

t

[Johnbee58]

2 hours ago, DeeringAmps said:

What happens if you move the project to a different drive?

I would want to be sure that my audio drive isn’t having issues.

Just a thought…

t

@DeeringAmps  Using another drive is not an option for me, but the one I'm using is an SSD.

?JB

[DeeringAmps]

What about a thumb drive?

Create a simple project and save to the thumb drive. Make a few edits; will it save normally? Add Trilian, will it save normally?

11 minutes ago, Johnbee58 said:

another drive is not an option

OS, Samples, and projects are all on one drive?

[John Vere]

On 5/24/2023 at 9:25 AM, mark skinner said:

This may not be relevant , but I've had  save problems on my last 2 projects. Both times it was an active Youlean Loudness meter accidently left on in the master bus.              ms

The You Lean meter is very light load and I have it on hundreds of projects I export. I never turn it off. It is not likely the cause of an export issue or thousands of people would report it. 
I think the best solution is to capture that crash dump an have some one look at it If it is Trillion I will be listed as a cause of the crash. 
If your SSD drive is a Samsung they have a diagnostic tool. I thought my drive was needing replacement and I ordered a new one in the box was the info about the tool app so I installed it and it showed both my Samsung drives as being 100 % healthy.  
https://semiconductor.samsung.com/consumer-storage/magician/

Edited May 25, 2023 by John Vere

[Johnbee58]

2 hours ago, DeeringAmps said:

What about a thumb drive?

Create a simple project and save to the thumb drive. Make a few edits; will it save normally? Add Trilian, will it save normally?

OS, Samples, and projects are all on one drive?

Not entirely.  When I'm creating a song everything is on the SDD.  After the project is completed and I'm satisfied with the mix I do a double backup to a Seagate external HDD and a cloud storage service I rent.  I have run completed projects off of the Seagate successfully but extensive work I always do on the internal SDD.  But to directly answer your question, yes all the elements for creation are on the same drive.

?JB

[Johnbee58]

1 hour ago, John Vere said:

The You Lean meter is very light load and I have it on hundreds of projects I export. I never turn it off. It is not likely the cause of an export issue or thousands of people would report it. 
I think the best solution is to capture that crash dump an have some one look at it If it is Trillion I will be listed as a cause of the crash. 
If your SSD drive is a Samsung they have a diagnostic tool. I thought my drive was needing replacement and I ordered a new one in the box was the info about the tool app so I installed it and it showed both my Samsung drives as being 100 % healthy.  
https://semiconductor.samsung.com/consumer-storage/magician/

Honestly I don't know what the make of the SDD is on my system.  Back in 2021 I special ordered a Dell desktop PC for dedicated music production.  It's a certain type of SDD.  I don't remember what they call them but the drive is about the size of a stick of chewing gum.

?JB

[bitflipper]

On 5/24/2023 at 4:57 AM, Johnbee58 said:

I've been taking notice of late that when I go to save something in CbB using the Save in the Edit menu it hangs for a few seconds and just closes the program without saving anything.  I've just lost a half hours work because of this.  Any ideas as to what all of a sudden is causing this behavior?   I'm using Trilian Bass module when this is happening.  Switching to ctrl+S seems to work OK......for now.

When you say "Save in the Edit menu", I assume you meant to type "Save in the File menu".  CTL-S does exactly the same thing as File -> Save. It is literally a shortcut key to the dropdown menu selection and executes the exact same code. If it works when the menu selection does not, it just means the problem is intermittent.

File->Save does not close the program. That suggests an error during the save is causing the program to abort.

First, check to see if there is a crash dump in %appdata%\cakewalk\cakewalk core\minidumps. Next, go to Preferences -> Audio -> Configuration File and see if there is a variable there named ExceptionHandlingSeverity, If it's not there, add it to aud.ini. Set its value to 7. This tells the program to be more verbose when choosing which errors to tell you about, which might result in a helpful warning.

It's unlikely - but not entirely impossible - that this has anything to do with the use of Trillian. To see if there's an issue with it, try freezing your bass track before saving the project. If cakewalk aborts during the freeze, there could be an issue with corrupt Trillian sample files.

[DeeringAmps]

6 hours ago, Johnbee58 said:

the drive is about the size of a stick of chewing gum

Sounds like an m.2 SSD. Type of drive is irrelevant. What we need to know is if the drive itself is “healthy”. Save the current project to your external drive (rename it “project-ext”) Run both at the same time. Do a few edits, then save. Do the same on the external drive; save. Repeat until you get a crash. If both can cause a crash the problem is the project, or more likely a VST. Like Dave, I’d be surprised if Trilian is the root cause. 
I would want to test the SSD just as John suggested. In my opinion (experience) “best practice” requires three drives. OS, Project, and Samples. I have a laptop I can run CbB on (it’s a single drive) but it’s pitiful and I rarely have the patience to use it. I realize that your Dell is likely 100 times the machine that laptop is, but a single drive? No, three drives minimum in a modern DAW; sorry but anything less, ?‍♂️. 
Last question: how full is the drive?

t

[Johnbee58]

15 hours ago, bitflipper said:

When you say "Save in the Edit menu", I assume you meant to type "Save in the File menu".  CTL-S does exactly the same thing as File -> Save. It is literally a shortcut key to the dropdown menu selection and executes the exact same code. If it works when the menu selection does not, it just means the problem is intermittent.

File->Save does not close the program. That suggests an error during the save is causing the program to abort.

First, check to see if there is a crash dump in %appdata%\cakewalk\cakewalk core\minidumps. Next, go to Preferences -> Audio -> Configuration File and see if there is a variable there named ExceptionHandlingSeverity, If it's not there, add it to aud.ini. Set its value to 7. This tells the program to be more verbose when choosing which errors to tell you about, which might result in a helpful warning.

It's unlikely - but not entirely impossible - that this has anything to do with the use of Trillian. To see if there's an issue with it, try freezing your bass track before saving the project. If cakewalk aborts during the freeze, there could be an issue with corrupt Trillian sample files.

OK.  I did these things. At first I didn't see  all of the files listed in the drill down until I showed the hidden items.  Then there was Roaming between appdata and Cakewalk, but I filled in those gaps myself. ?

There are 9 Cakewalk.exe*******.dmp files but none of them say "Crash" in them.   Are they all crash dumps? There are 2 that are time stamped for 5/24/23 and that's what day these crashes happened last but I don't remember what time they happened.  There are also several .dmp file that are time stamped from various other days and times (some going back to last March and September) and I don't recall any problem happening before 5/24/23.  

Secondly, I opened the Audio Configuration file.  There wasn't any ExceptionHandlingSeverity so before I go on with your instructions I want to be very clear about what I'm doing.  I've never been this deep into the program and I don't want to screw anything up.  So, I see an Edit Configuration File tab on the upper left.  When I click it it opens a Word Pad document.  Is this where I'd add the ExceptionHandlingSeverity?  If so, how would I set the value?  Are you saying that doing this would cause it to warn me before a crash happens?

Thanks so much.  I appreciate your help intensely.

?John B

[Johnbee58]

10 hours ago, DeeringAmps said:

Sounds like an m.2 SSD. Type of drive is irrelevant. What we need to know is if the drive itself is “healthy”. Save the current project to your external drive (rename it “project-ext”) Run both at the same time. Do a few edits, then save. Do the same on the external drive; save. Repeat until you get a crash. If both can cause a crash the problem is the project, or more likely a VST. Like Dave, I’d be surprised if Trilian is the root cause. 
I would want to test the SSD just as John suggested. In my opinion (experience) “best practice” requires three drives. OS, Project, and Samples. I have a laptop I can run CbB on (it’s a single drive) but it’s pitiful and I rarely have the patience to use it. I realize that your Dell is likely 100 times the machine that laptop is, but a single drive? No, three drives minimum in a modern DAW; sorry but anything less, ?‍♂️. 
Last question: how full is the drive?

t

I don't think Trilian is the cause either.  Their techy said all the diagnostics were correct.  He wants me to send him some system data (Memory, etc).  Now that I have the project in question backed up to an external HDD I can try what you suggest.

 So far, this only has happened on what I call the bass session.  My workflow is that I divide my projects into separate instances of Cakewalk to save memory (which I don't have much of).  IOW, the first instance I'll do drums and keys.  Then I'll do vocals over them and when I get down to the "heavier" memory intensive parts (like bass and Kontakt player things like strings or horns) I'll make a session just for those eliminating everything else but drums and keys.  Then, when everything is completed I transfer everything from MIDI to audio waves for the final mix.  This anomaly happened only on the bass "session".  After I completed that session I started a new session for strings (about 5 channels of Kontakt Player) and there were no problems on that.

Maybe the bass session is just corrupted?

Thanks for your help

?John B

[DeeringAmps]

16 minutes ago, Johnbee58 said:

the bass session is just corrupted?

What VST’s are in that session?

Bypass all VST (keystroke “e”) then turn Trilian back on (e should bypass VSTi as well) can you save safely then?

Its just this one project that is problematic?

I’ve never had a corrupt project, but it happens. 
 

22 minutes ago, Johnbee58 said:

to save memory

Less than 16 gigs?

t

[Johnbee58]

34 minutes ago, DeeringAmps said:

What VST’s are in that session?

Bypass all VST (keystroke “e”) then turn Trilian back on (e should bypass VSTi as well) can you save safely then?

Its just this one project that is problematic?

I’ve never had a corrupt project, but it happens. 
 

Less than 16 gigs?

t

16 gigs exactly but with all of the Kontackt players and Trilians etc. opened up it sometimes gets above 85% and things go south from there quickly.  But this particular session was only at about 50% memory use at the time.

Also, I should clarify that this anomaly happens intermittently.  It doesn't happen most of the time.  I have been able to complete the session but after the errors started I began to cautiously save more frequently.  It never ever happened before the other day and that's what puzzles me.

?JB

Edited May 26, 2023 by Johnbee58

[DeeringAmps]

Just this one project is troublesome?

My “old” StudioCat is 16 gigs and I’ve never “swamped” the memory, but mostly EZD (or SD3) EZK, and Trilian, (or EZB or ModoBass) are the main VSTi’s (IK’s Hammond as well) my workflow dictates that I do some freezing to keep latency to a minimum. Freezing, bouncing a two track mix (then archive the raw tracks), were common practice before I got the first Cat. 
 

If this is the only project with issues I would rebuild it from scratch and see what happens (save a backup copy to the external drive) If it continues to be “problematic” or later becomes problematic work the external project (from the external drive) to see if it’s specific to the SSD. 
In the meantime, get some diagnostics from Dell and check the m.2 for errors. Drives do “die”. 
How full is the internal SSD?

t

[John Vere]

My DAW has 10 GB of Memory. I never have to do what you are doing, I've never had to freeze tracks etc.  and I think we write the same sort of songs. Only thing I have never used is Kontakt. 

[bitflipper]

4 hours ago, Johnbee58 said:

There are 9 Cakewalk.exe*******.dmp files but none of them say "Crash" in them.   Are they all crash dumps?

Yes. They are named after the project file with date and time appended, and have a .dmp file extension.

Someone from Cakewalk can analyze them for you (probably only one is needed, since they're probably all showing the same problem).

If you like, I can take a look at one for you, although the amount of information I can glean from them will be less than what's available to the Cakewalk folks. If you want to do that, post one of them to a public file server such as DropBox and sent me a PM with the link to it.

4 hours ago, Johnbee58 said:

I see an Edit Configuration File tab on the upper left.  When I click it it opens a Word Pad document.  Is this where I'd add the ExceptionHandlingSeverity?

Yes. It's just a way to edit aud.ini (%appdata%\cakewalk\cakewalk core\aud.ini) without having to exit Cakewalk and start it back up. When you click the Edit button, it'll bring up the file in a text editor (usually Notepad). Just add the new variable at the top like this:

        [Aud]
        ExceptionHandlingSeverity=7
        DataDir=C:\Cakewalk Projects\Audio Data
        PictureDir=C:\Cakewalk Projects\Picture Cache
        PicCacheMB=500
        PicCacheZoom=128
        PicCacheLevels=2
        EnablePicCacheThreads=1
        ComputePicturesWhilePlaying=1

        ...

Don't worry about messing anything up. If you type it in wrong, it'll just be ignored. If you want to un-do this troubleshooting aid later on, you can either change the value from 7 to 1 or simply delete the entry.

 

P.S. If you feel like taking a stab at examining the dump file yourself, here's an ancient post I made with some basic instructions for using Windbg to look into a dump file. It references the old exe name for Sonar Producer (sonarpdr.exe), but other than that everything's still applicable. If your googling skills are better than mine, I made another post on the old forum about troubleshooting plugins that, iirc, went into greater detail.

[Johnbee58]

2 hours ago, DeeringAmps said:

Just this one project is troublesome?

My “old” StudioCat is 16 gigs and I’ve never “swamped” the memory, but mostly EZD (or SD3) EZK, and Trilian, (or EZB or ModoBass) are the main VSTi’s (IK’s Hammond as well) my workflow dictates that I do some freezing to keep latency to a minimum. Freezing, bouncing a two track mix (then archive the raw tracks), were common practice before I got the first Cat. 
 

If this is the only project with issues I would rebuild it from scratch and see what happens (save a backup copy to the external drive) If it continues to be “problematic” or later becomes problematic work the external project (from the external drive) to see if it’s specific to the SSD. 
In the meantime, get some diagnostics from Dell and check the m.2 for errors. Drives do “die”. 
How full is the internal SSD?

t

Sorry.  You asked that before

  SDD is approx 1/3 full.