How to latency compensate when monitoring hardware synths with VST effects?

[GreenLight]

Hey all!

After being ITB for 10+ years I'm back to using some hardware again, with the classic monitoring and latency issues. ?

Is there any way I can compensate for the latency that is introduced when monitoring external hardware synths with VST effects? Can I use the Cakewalk external hardware insert plugin (if yes, I didn't understand how) or something else to get it synced?

Or is it just asking for trouble, and I should get an external effect pedal for my synth?

Thanks!

UPDATE: The solution, as I figured out further down, is to enable control bar button "Override automatic plug-in delay compensation on live inputs"! (a k a "Live Input PDC Override"). This eliminates the latency caused by PDC on audio input channels where you are monitoring with VST effects. It makes it possible to sequence MIDI hardware in Cakewalk while monitoring the results via external effects and to have that in sync with existing tracks! ? ?

Edited April 11, 2023 by GreenLight
Added solution

[gustabo]

Vst effects WILL cause latency, period. Some more, some less, depends on what kind of effect and the actual effect. Some vendors effects create more latency than others'. External effect pedal would be best.

[GreenLight]

Thanks for your input, @gustabo! Yeah, I kinda figured... Will look into effects pedals!

[Andres Medina]

I agree.

Anyway, you can get almost unnoticeable delay nowadays, but it requires a powerful system, and proper configuration. Try reducing your driver configuration settings to 128 samples or even less if your system/projects allows it.

[John Vere]

Are you using this for live performance?  As in playing a hardware synth live and just wanting to use VST effects to morph sounds?  
 

[GreenLight]

3 hours ago, Andres Medina said:

I agree.

Anyway, you can get almost unnoticeable delay nowadays, but it requires a powerful system, and proper configuration. Try reducing your driver configuration settings to 128 samples or even less if your system/projects allows it.

True! My DAW build is 4 years old, based on an Intel Core i7-8700K. I use a lot of soft synths and most of the time have to use a 256 or 512 sample buffer when mixing. Maybe I ought to upgrade?

[GreenLight]

3 hours ago, John Vere said:

Are you using this for live performance?  As in playing a hardware synth live and just wanting to use VST effects to morph sounds?  
 

No, it's purely for studio work, trying to write and jam with the hardware synthesizer along my VST instruments and audio tracks.

The story is, I finally got my first analog synthesizer, a Moog Subsequent 37. It's a beautiful instrument, so inspiring! ❤️ But it has no built-in FX, and it really thrives with some FX added. Just playing solo, it sounds terrific with some VSTs in Cakewalk. But using the same setup, trying to sync an arpeggio or sequencer to (existing tracks in) Cakewalk, seems impossible.

So to get super-low latency while jamming along my Cakewalk projects, I think I just need to get an FX pedal with some suitable reverb and delay. Maybe a Ventris or Strymion or something.

Sheesh, going the hardware-route is a really slippery slope! ?

Edited April 8, 2023 by GreenLight
Clarification

[John Vere]

It’s true and no doubt about it ITB and all the toys is basically almost free. As your finding out hardware is still a lot more fun but it can grow and grow into a monster. 
I tried using VST guitar effects live and the latency sucks. it’s like that trash can slap back.  

I guess it can be lessened down to under 6 ms with top of the line laptops but that’s going to cost me $2,000.
That will buy me some very good hardware.  Like one of those Kemplers.  
I have done 2 gigs now playing keyboards live using Cakewalk and a bunch of VST instruments and that works brilliantly.  
My son has a bunch of crazy hardware stuff including some sort of moog looking one and it’s all hardware no computer it seems to be linked together through a controller/ drum machine gizmo that sync everything up. It pretty amazing what happens when you move knobs and sliders and hit different pads. Play a little riff on the keyboard and go off into space. Too much fun.   

[Base 57]

A relatively inexpensive way to add hardware FX to a studio rig is the Behringer XR12 ($419 at Sweetwater). Sure, it is actually a digital mixer, but it works great as a multi-channel FX unit. 12 inputs, 6 outputs 4 separate FX channels, and has dynamics and EQ on all inputs and outputs.

[Starship Krupa]

At 44.1K/256 buffers, the delay is about the same as being 6’ away from a sound source, just factoring the speed at which sound travels. MIDI itself has its own delays.

My system is based on an i7-6950X and I have no special issues with latency delays, but I also have even older systems with even less CPU power that also have no trouble. The code that makes up the heart of Cakewalk goes back many years, and itself tends not to challenge older hardware. The most punishing use is hosting plug-ins.

The thing to watch out for is individual plug-ins that induce further latency. I find that to make a more perceptible difference than where my buffers are set (as long as they’re 768 or under). If I want to have “comfort” FX while tracking (as opposed to ones I want to print), I make sure to use FX that don’t add latency (the Sonitus suite is light on CPU use, as are the Dead Duck FX, Kilohearts Essentials, and MeldaProduction FreeFX bundle processors, all free to use) and I add them to individual tracks, not buses. Then I can use whatever I want when mixing and latency is not an issue.

I can track live guitar through VST FX just fine, but not all VST FX. The ones that are made for processing guitars tend to induce less latency delay. No “trash can slap back” unless of course I want that. ?

So if you’re getting audible latency that affects your ability to play in sync, and that latency goes away when you bypass all effects, try re-enabling them one by one and take note of which one(s) cause the latency. (And be sure that you stop and start your transport each time you disable/enable an effect to give Cakewalk a chance to recalculate delay).

[Byron Dickens]

Unless I am using an amp sim, I never track through effects.

[GreenLight]

20 hours ago, John Vere said:

It’s true and no doubt about it ITB and all the toys is basically almost free. As your finding out hardware is still a lot more fun but it can grow and grow into a monster.

Haha, true! Working ITB really saves you from the headaches of integrating (one or multiple) external boxes... ?

20 hours ago, John Vere said:

My son has a buch of crazy hardware stuff including some sort of moog looking one and it’s all hardware no computer it seems to be linked together through a controller/ drum machine gizmo that sync everything up. It pretty amazing what happens when you move knobs and sliders and hit different pads. Play a little riff on the keyboard and go off into space. Too much fun.   

Cool! ? I kinda envy those fully OOTB people, but I'm too much of a control-freak to leave the DAW...

[GreenLight]

15 hours ago, Starship Krupa said:

At 44.1K/256 buffers, the delay is about the same as being 6’ away from a sound source, just factoring the speed at which sound travels. MIDI itself has its own delays.

My system is based on an i7-6950X and I have no special issues with latency delays, but I also have even older systems with even less CPU power that also have no trouble. The code that makes up the heart of Cakewalk goes back many years, and itself tends not to challenge older hardware. The most punishing use is hosting plug-ins.

The thing to watch out for is individual plug-ins that induce further latency. I find that to make a more perceptible difference than where my buffers are set (as long as they’re 768 or under). If I want to have “comfort” FX while tracking (as opposed to ones I want to print), I make sure to use FX that don’t add latency (the Sonitus suite is light on CPU use, as are the Dead Duck FX, Kilohearts Essentials, and MeldaProduction FreeFX bundle processors, all free to use) and I add them to individual tracks, not buses. Then I can use whatever I want when mixing and latency is not an issue.

I can track live guitar through VST FX just fine, but not all VST FX. The ones that are made for processing guitars tend to induce less latency delay. No “trash can slap back” unless of course I want that. ?

So if you’re getting audible latency that affects your ability to play in sync, and that latency goes away when you bypass all effects, try re-enabling them one by one and take note of which one(s) cause the latency. (And be sure that you stop and start your transport each time you disable/enable an effect to give Cakewalk a chance to recalculate delay).

Thanks for your extensive reply @Starship Krupa! Good points about plugin-specific latency.

To test the effect buffer size has on latency, I started a blank new project, I put a WAV bassdrum loop on one track and another with MIDI notes for my hardware, triggering a short plucky sound. With input monitoring on, and no VST effects, the MIDI hardware sounds start in total sync up to a buffer of 128 samples. At 256 samples it sounds a little off already.

My projects always require a buffer of 256 or more, I guess I'm taxing my 8th generation Intel Core i7-8700K too heavily, even with my PCIe RME HDSPe AIO soundcard. Running 20-25 VST instruments plus probably about 100 effects is not unusual for me.

But! ? I just found the control bar button "Override automatic plug-in delay compensation on live inputs"! I've used Cakewalk for 20+ years, but I've never really had to deal with input monitoring and latency, so I feel like a total newbie again. ?This button (called "Live Input PDC Override" in the manual, p367) feels like the solution! When I enable it, my external MIDI hardware suddenly sounds in sync with my existing Cakewalk tracks AND I can utilize VST effects on the input monitoring!

But there must be a catch!? ?

[GreenLight]

19 hours ago, Base 57 said:

A relatively inexpensive way to add hardware FX to a studio rig is the Behringer XR12 ($419 at Sweetwater). Sure, it is actually a digital mixer, but it works great as a multi-channel FX unit. 12 inputs, 6 outputs 4 separate FX channels, and has dynamics and EQ on all inputs and outputs.

Good suggestion, looks neat and basically in a rack format! Although I try very hard to keep my studio as lean and small as possible, to minimize time spent on tech troubleshooting (this is contradicted by my recent Moog purchase ?)...

[John Vere]

Interesting about the Behringer mixer as that is similar to my sons set up which is a Behringer xair 18. Then he has a fancy line 6 pedal board he runs synths through too.  
 

I am aware of the fact that sound has latency it’s mentioned in my video but when you wear headphones any system latency is very annoying and 10 ms is very noticeable to me. I have to stay at 256 or I get static so I’m at around 12 ms RTL. I use Melda MTuner on guitar and bass so I have to turn on input echo and the slap back is pretty obvious. I guess if I turned down direct monitoring and only listen to the computer output I wouldn’t hear the slap back but then what I am hearing is the notes I play delayed buy 12 ms. Add a guitar sim and that increase to more like 16ms.

  Sound latency is 3 ms per meter. So that’s like standing 5meters away from your amp.  I’m never more than 1 or 2 meter away from my amp. And this is why in ear monitors are a game changer for live music on big stages.  It not only helps with pitch it can help with timing. But the systems are all digital now and guess what!  they can have audio latency too. 
One just needs to be aware of latency issues and how to minimize and avoid any problems they might cause. If ignored it can lead to sloppy tracks.  Or  a sloppy live performance.  
Midi is easy to fix with quantization but audio tracks often go unnoticed which is not always desired in certain types of music. 
Here’s a good test of how latency can effect our playing. Outside event and your  bass or guitar is wireless. Start walking away from the stage and see how far you get before you start struggling to play in time with the band. Your still hearing everything at the in time , just like the audience will but your playing late and your brain will loose it’s ability to compensate for it. This example is identical to what happens when you use input echo and RTL  gets above 10 ms. Myself I noticed it at even less. 
 

When I play bass I stand as close to the drums as possible and I put my amp right next to them. 

Edited April 10, 2023 by John Vere

[Starship Krupa]

@GreenLight, nice work on finding a solution. I, too, hope that as you say, there isn't a catch.

1 hour ago, John Vere said:

When I play bass I stand as close to the drums as possible and I put my amp right next to them. 

Hmm. I wonder if this is one of those things like bit-perfect playback that some people are more sensitive to than others.

When I discovered the difference between listening through the Windows mixer and Windows Media Player and using a player like Music Bee or AIMP that does bit-perfect playback, it was stunning. I sat up all night going through my favorite albums just grooving on all the detail I could hear.

But it's hard to find anyone, even among musicians and audio engineers, who knows or cares about this. But even Neil Young, with his shot to hell hearing from playing so loud, can hear the difference. The same things he says are true, I experience as well: there's a greater emotional impact.

And yes, I am very familiar with the wireless test. I worked in the engineering department at Nady Systems back in the mid 80's (when every metal band had to have Nady wireless rigs).

[John Vere]

4 hours ago, Starship Krupa said:

But it's hard to find anyone, even among musicians and audio engineers, who knows or cares about this. But even Neil Young, with his shot to hell hearing from playing so loud, can hear the difference. The same things he says are true, I experience as well: there's a greater emotional impact.

Back in the days of tape it was critical to make sure the syncing was aligned properly. In those day you used your ears not your eyes. So that little tattletale garbage can slap back  was something you learned to listen for. Otherwise the overdubs where out of sync to the bed tracks. 

Put your hand up if you remember this and weird things happening like print through. We were advised to store tapes on a take up reel so the print through would be after and not before on the tapes. The word Pre Delay comes to mind.  For those who don't know what print through means, it's the magnetic property of tape can be so strong it transfers through to the next layer on the reel.  

Any how,  those days and things I learned have made me hyper sensitive to hearing delay when it's not supposed to be there. Why do you think engineers had nearfield monitors as close as possible to the listening position. The Big Soffit speakers which might be a good 12 feet away were for playback listening but detailed work has always been done with nearfields. 3ms is not noticeable to any humans I am aware of. 

It's easy to see if your screwing up your audio overdubs. Just zoom way in on the transients. If it was played to a midi drum kit those transients should be very close to the grid. Bass is especially noticeable when it's off time by even a little bit. Not that any or all of this is going to make for Bad music, totally not. It's just we need to be aware and keep it under our control. It's part of the professional approach to engineering. And being an ADHD nerd. 

[Starship Krupa]

1 hour ago, John Vere said:

Put your hand up if you remember this and weird things happening like print through. We were advised to store tapes on a take up reel so the print through would be after and not before on the tapes. The word Pre Delay comes to mind.  For those who don't know what print through means, it's the magnetic property of tape can be so strong it transfers through to the next layer on the reel.

Back in the day, I was only ever in pro studios as a producer or talent, never as an engineer. 8 track, then 16, then 16 via two conjoined ADAT's.

I used to read Mix and others, so I knew about print-through, and not having loud sounds on a track adjacent to softer sounds so as to avoid bleed-through.

"Whole Lotta Love" is of course the most famous example of audible bleed-through, and it's a totally awesome effect. Generations of stoners have doubtlessly tripped hard on that effect. I've even seen people try to duplicate it with a backup singer when covering the song.

"way Way down insiiiiide woman woman...." sheer genius, the happiest of accidents.

And for the people who despair of happy accidents occurring today in our precise world of DAW's, I can think of at least one I had with Cakewalk and (I think) TAL Noisemaker. I got a stuck note that sounded AWESOME as a pedal tone underneath my chord change in the chorus. Not reproducible after I stopped the transport, but I took note of where it had occurred and dragged the note out.

[John Vere]

@Starship Krupa  Just the other day I was mixing a song and with headphones on I kept hearing this sub bass note? Weird because Ample p bass lite is only a 4 string so ends at E. i started soloing tracks and as it turned out a copy paste I remember doing got plunked on a poly synth track which played an octave lower. It’s now a subtle part of the bass line that you only notice with good playback gear.  I love those little details like that in music. We used to call them ear candy.  

Edited April 11, 2023 by John Vere