How do I get louder volume without clipping?

[T Boog]

On 3/2/2023 at 4:29 PM, Bristol_Jonesey said:

It's been mentioned a few times but the issue you're perceving is almost certainly how you've got things set up in Cakewalk.

At the risk of repetition - what are you using for an interface and what driver are you using

Thanks Jonesey. Im using an Audiobox 96 and the driver is set to ASIO. But you may have hit on something cause I was actually getting louder and better performance when I had it set to WASAPI. Now with it set to ASIO, it cracks and pops more and is not as loud.

I only set it to ASIO because WASAPI stopped recording audio. It was only letting me record midi. From what Ive read, I think I may have created a format issue for WASAPI.

Anyway, I know ASIO is supposed to be the better, go-to driver but I'm getting the opposite result. Any light you guys could shed on this would be awesome. Cheers!

Btw, for some reason with ASIO, I also have to keep the buffer size set to fast(11.6 milliseconds) even when Im not tracking. When I set it to a slow buffer size it starts cracking & popping. IOWs, it's working backwards. Maybe I have something set wrong? I just dont know.

Edited March 5, 2023 by Tarrell Freeze
More info

[John Vere]

Update dead link

 

Edited August 16, 2023 by JohnnyV

[57Gregy]

2 hours ago, Tarrell Freeze said:

Thanks Jonesey. Im using an Audiobox 96 and the driver is set to ASIO

But is that the Presonus ASIO driver included with the Universal Control software from this page?

https://www.presonus.com/products/AudioBox-USB-96/downloads

Or some generic ASIO driver, such as the RealTek driver included on many computers these days?

 

 

[John Vere]

1 hour ago, 57Gregy said:

But is that the Presonus ASIO driver included with the Universal Control software from this page?

https://www.presonus.com/products/AudioBox-USB-96/downloads

Or some generic ASIO driver, such as the RealTek driver included on many computers these days?

 

 

Good call because Presonus does install a Generic ASIO driver when you install the  DAW software that comes with the interface. 
But the statement about WASAPI being louder than ASIO cannot be accurate. That’s not how things work.
Hopefully they will watch my Audio set up video which will rule out a dozen or more possibilities. Otherwise threads like this go on for pages of questions and answers. 

Edited March 5, 2023 by John Vere

[T Boog]

6 hours ago, John Vere said:

Good call because Presonus does install a Generic ASIO driver when you install the  DAW software that comes with the interface. 
But the statement about WASAPI being louder than ASIO cannot be accurate. That’s not how things work.
Hopefully they will watch my Audio set up video which will rule out a dozen or more possibilities. Otherwise threads like this go on for pages of questions and answers. 

Hi John, I watched ur videos and everything seems set up right in windows & cakewalk. My ins & outs(and playback/record timing master) say "Audiobox ASIO Driver In/Out" and Driver Mode says ASIO. Something just seems outta wack. Like how I get more clicks & pops when set to a slower buffer size.

Again, it worked & sounded better on wasapi.

I think I'm gonna borrow my brothers interface and download the driver for it to see if possibly my interface or driver is the issue. At least it'll rule that out.

Edited March 6, 2023 by Tarrell Freeze
Correction

[Byron Dickens]

I have to wonder, like somebody else mentioned before, if the real problem isn't what is coming out but what is going in.

[Bristol_Jonesey]

7 hours ago, Tarrell Freeze said:

Hi John, I watched ur videos and everything seems set up right in windows & cakewalk. My ins & outs(and playback/record timing master) say "Audiobox ASIO Driver In/Out" and Driver Mode says ASIO. Something just seems outta wack. Like how I get more clicks & pops when set to a slower buffer size.

Again, it worked & sounded better on wasapi.

I think I'm gonna borrow my brothers interface and download the driver for it to see if possibly my interface or driver is the issue. At least it'll rule that out.

It's quite normal to RAISE your buffers when mixing to eliminate clicks & pops

Is this what you mean by "slower"?

[John Vere]

@Tarrell Freeze That is a great idea. to try a different interface. Troubleshooting 101- swap out components until the issue goes away. 
 

[T Boog]

1 hour ago, John Vere said:

@Tarrell Freeze That is a great idea. to try a different interface. Troubleshooting 101- swap out components until the issue goes away. 
 

Thanks John. Btw, your Cactus Studios vids have helped me a lot. You're a good teacher.

[T Boog]

8 hours ago, Bristol_Jonesey said:

It's quite normal to RAISE your buffers when mixing to eliminate clicks & pops

Is this what you mean by "slower"?

No bud, it's working backwards. Moving the slider to the right to a slower "safe" buffer speed like 46.4 msecs causes more clicks & pops during mixing. So I always leave it to the left on 11.6 msecs.

Fwiw, when it was set to wasapi it worked correctly.

Also on wasapi, when I set it to a slow buffer speed there was a delayed response when I pressed play, stop, etc. IOWs, it worked as it should so as to look ahead but set on asio, there's no change in control response time regardless of where I set the buffer speed. It's like it's unable to look ahead.

 

 

Edited March 6, 2023 by Tarrell Freeze
Add info

[scook]

Use what ever works.

Manufacturer supplied ASIO drivers usually perform best but there are exceptions. At least, the DAW works with native drivers too.

I used to have a Presonus 44VSL. ASIO was the best performer for it. But the interface only worked with the USB3 ports on the PC. Using the interface with the PC's USB2 ports (which it was designed for) always caused crackling. Definitely not the norm. IIRC, at the time the PC I was using even had off-brand USB3 chipsets too.

[T Boog]

Thanks for all the responses guys. Btw, I do have a high pass on bass, drums and most instruments so I dont think it's a low freq thing. Also, my soft synths are the same level as my audio tracks so I don't think it's an input recording level issue.

[T Boog]

33 minutes ago, scook said:

Use what ever works.

Manufacturer supplied ASIO drivers usually perform best but there are exceptions. At least, the DAW works with native drivers too.

I used to have a Presonus 44VSL. ASIO was the best performer for it. But the interface only worked with the USB3 ports on the PC. Using the interface with the PC's USB2 ports (which it was designed for) always caused crackling. Definitely not the norm. IIRC, at the time the PC I was using even had off-brand USB3 chipsets too.

Thanks Scook. Id love to go back to wasapi but it stopped recording audio. It's just letting me record midi. So yeah, asio seems to be my only option.

[scook]

4 minutes ago, Tarrell Freeze said:

Thanks Scook. Id love to go back to wasapi but it stopped recording audio. It's just letting me record midi. So yeah, asio seems to be my only option.

ASIO and WASAPI are audio specifications.

They have nothing to do with MIDI.

If WASAPI stopped working you may need to refresh the driver.

[T Boog]

3 minutes ago, scook said:

ASIO and WASAPI are audio specifications.

They have nothing to do with MIDI.

If WASAPI stopped working you may need to refresh the driver.

Cool, thanks. I'll def try that.

[John Vere]

For those interested in the topic the OP carried on and found a solution. Offset mode! 

 

[T Boog]

Thanks Johnny V and all u guys for ur advice. And yeah, it looks like Kalle wins the cigar. I got bit by the offset mode. I'd say that's a "routing error".

Offset mode is a great tool but once in use, u have to always remain aware of it.

Im still trying to get my head around how all the controls interact between the two boards but it seems that both boards are always in series. Toggling between envelope & offset only hides the other mixing board.

It'd be great if they designed the offset mode board to have a slightly diff look, color, or border when in use so u know ur not in Kansas anymore. That's what got me, everything looks exactly the same accept for the little light by the transport. I had no clue I was looking at a whole diff mixing board from the one I started my project with. 

Anyway, Thanks again for all the help guys. Cheers ?

[Will.]

Besides pushing faders and checking low end all the time - have you considered that you might be over compressing your individual tracks and Master bus? Compressors are great tools to have in your arsenal, but it can ruin your dynamics in your music.

If a track doesnt require a compressor, why use it? Have you try swapping a compressor out for a saturator to trim some of your peaks? Why lower the "Gain knob" when its not needed? Are your pannings sitting in their own spaces in your Master sessions? Have you check for excessive stereo information? Why use reverb on every track? Have you tried to swap a reverb for a delay? Are you heavy handed on low pass filters? Why use downward compression when upward compression might be needed? Are you recording at the proper gain stage? Why turn down gain stage volumes when you can move away from the mic, or closer to it to sit well above the noise floor? 

Well, dear friend you came to the right place! Your questions are well taken care of. This message will self destruct oneday when this forum dont exsist anymore. T&Cs apply.

Aint that a pickle! 

Right. 

Jokes aside. You need to consider all that was mentioned above. HOT TIP! Before you crank those faders, almost everytime when you make a cut, boost, high pass or low pass with an eq your levels rises too with your kicks and bass tracks. This can lead to sum muddiness tricking your brain in thinking your levels are low. Almost always EQ to the key of your track.

Again: if it is not needed why use it? If you can EQ, Compress, Reverb, Delay within you Midi/Vst Instrument why use a plugin when you've already gotten the polish/desired taste to your sound? Dont over kill your peaks and dynamics. 

If it aint broke, why fix it? 

[Soliloquy] Did i drink coffee just now? Oh-well, kitchen here I come. 

Edited August 19, 2023 by Will.

[John Vere]

14 minutes ago, Will. said:

Again: if it is not needed why use it? If you can EQ, Compress, Reverb, Delay within you Midi/Vst Instrument why use a plugin when you've already gotten the polish/desired taste to your sound? Dont over kill your peaks and dynamics. 

100% agreed. I think a lot of newbie audio engineers these days don't realize there's a huge danger in have all those effects available. My first studio had 1 each , a Yamaha stereo compressor, an Alesis Reverb and a Digitech delay.  You had basic EQ on the mixer. And when this was on Tape you had to optimize for peak levels to avoid the noise floor. The tone and quality of the recording depended on the source and mikes used. We made very good recordings that some of which are still being listened to and enjoyed. Most of the small studios like mine had abpout $10,000 worth of gear. A real studio would be more like $100,000! 

Guess what. You now get the $100,000 studio free. Well ya, minus the cool monitor system and treatment. But almost everything else we paid big bucks for in those days is now ITB. 

To clarify I will say my approach is for recording traditional Pop, Rock, acoustic and Country music. Electronic music is absolutely open to over use of effects , that's what it is all about. But most styles of music do not need to be abused by overuse of effects.

Example. I don't use any effects until I get to the mixing stage. But often while listening to mix you decide that something else is needed and so you have a fully fleshed out mix and need to track a new guitar. I will bypass all the effects to do this  and guess what? sometimes everything all of a sudden sounds better! Try it. Overuse of reverb is often a good way to muddy up a mix. And squashing everything with compression makes for a flat sounding mix. And as Will said I use the effects built in to most of my VST instruments and save that as a pre set. That instrument can now be added to any song and sound perfect every time I use it. 

Ya, now I'm out of coffee too!  

[mettelus]

On 3/6/2023 at 1:45 PM, T Boog said:

Btw, I do have a high pass on bass, drums and most instruments so I dont think it's a low freq thing. Also, my soft synths are the same level as my audio tracks so I don't think it's an input recording level issue.

It is a bit more complex than this, and as soon as you mention "synth" it raises concerns. Each track/instrument should only have its relevant frequency material passed into FX chains. Frequency collisions are commonly countered with slight EQ boosts to instruments that use those, and complementary EQ cuts to everything else (mirror EQ). Another trick is to push colliding frequencies to the sides and leave the focused instrument more center. The goal is to keep frequencies that only add to overall power out of the mix (kills your headroom drastically).

With synths in particular... presets are often for demo purposes, cover a WIDE frequency range, and are processed internally to no end (so they sound cool solo). As soon as you are mixing a synth, 3-6dB cuts/shelves to anything conflicting with another instrument is advised. Automation can be your friend to bring things in and out of focus as well, but knocking down "extraneous frequencies" (they do add up quickly) gives you a lot more headroom to work with for the overall mix. The "wall of sound" is achieved by filling the audio stage with relevant frequencies that each have their own place so they can be heard. Synths often "take up everything" so be wary of them (especially presets).

Edited August 20, 2023 by mettelus