Internal MIDI routing in Cakewalk?

[Jaxeed]

I can’t seem to figure out how to rout multiple MIDI channels to one VST instrument. I assume there must be something I simply don’t understand, because this not being possible seems like a bit of a terrible oversight.

For instance, TX16Wx can have up to 12 different patches loaded, but Cakewalk seem to only be able to send MIDI to Channel 1 exclusively. Any other channel receives no data regardless of how I attempt to rout MIDI to the instrument. HALion has 16 different channels that all can load patches, but again Cakewalk only communicates with MIDI Channel 1. Seems like such a silly waste to load an entire instrument like this, only to use one single channel.

VSTs that transmit MIDI like EON Arp seems to meet a brick wall in Cakewalk too. In pretty much any other DAW it’s simply a matter of selecting to receive MIDI from EON Arp on the instrument track you want arpeggiated, but no such option in Cakewalk? This can’t be right. Or is it?

[User 905133]

1 hour ago, Jaxeed said:

I can’t seem to figure out how to rout multiple MIDI channels to one VST instrument. I assume there must be something I simply don’t understand, because this not being possible seems like a bit of a terrible oversight.

For instance, TX16Wx can have up to 12 different patches loaded, but Cakewalk seem to only be able to send MIDI to Channel 1 exclusively. Any other channel receives no data regardless of how I attempt to rout MIDI to the instrument. HALion has 16 different channels that all can load patches, but again Cakewalk only communicates with MIDI Channel 1. Seems like such a silly waste to load an entire instrument like this, only to use one single channel.

VSTs that transmit MIDI like EON Arp seems to meet a brick wall in Cakewalk too. In pretty much any other DAW it’s simply a matter of selecting to receive MIDI from EON Arp on the instrument track you want arpeggiated, but no such option in Cakewalk? This can’t be right. Or is it?

I don't currently have a full-featured multitimbral soft synth that I can use to test, but I used to do this with hardware and a now-legacy multitimbral soft synth. I am not sure how it would work with TX16Wx, but assuming you have multiple midi tracks each having data on a single track, here are some steps to try:

• Using the Track Widget Control set to "All"
  • point each midi track to the same synth [O = Output Track Widget]
  • point each midi track to a different channel [C = Destination Channel Widget]

I don't have TX16Wx, so it might need some other set-up steps and it might not work with that synth.  

When you say Cakewalk only sends data to MIDI channel 1 to a multitimbral synth, it sounds to me like a setup issue.  The last time I looked, Cakewalk still sends midi data to different midi channels.  CONFIRMED!  

If those steps don't help, maybe post an image of the track header containing the widget settings to show the routings of each midi track.

PS: I am installing TX16Wx now to give it a try.  I downloaded and installed TX16Wx and rescanned my plug-ins.

UPDATE: Conclusion: Try the steps. 

• I don't have the time to look for samples to load up, but Cakewalk definitely sends midi data to different slots. Here's what I did:
  • Created an Instrument track with TX16Wx.
  • Created three MIDI tracks by recording random midi keypresses on each of three midi tracks.
    • NOTE: I did not record midi data on the instrument track.
      • (Its simpler that way, but it could be done if you record the data on different midi channels.)
  • Pointed each of the three midi tracks to the TX16Wx (using the Output Track Widget).
  • Pointed each of the three midi tracks to a different midi channel (using the Destination Channel Widget).

I can tell by the virtual LEDs on each of the TX16Wx Slots, the different midi tracks were sending data to different slots. 

Thanks for mentioning the TX16Wx.  Looks cool.  ?

Edited February 26, 2023 by User 905133
(2) edited the original post to reflect new information; (1) added an update to say channelized data in CbB does go to different slots on the TX16Wx.

[bitflipper]

Make sure you're using separate MIDI tracks for each MIDI channel, as opposed to a Simple Instrument Track, with the MIDI channel number specified for each individual track. 

 

 

[Promidi]

I use all 16 MIDI channels from Cakewalk to my external 16 part (16 MIDI channel) multitimbral SW1000XG.  It's worked that way for the last 21 years using many iterations of Cakewalk (including CbB 2022.11 Build 21)

So Cakewalk definitely sends MIDI events on all 16 MIDI channels.

[JnTuneTech]

3 hours ago, Jaxeed said:

I can’t seem to figure out how to rout multiple MIDI channels to one VST instrument. I assume there must be something I simply don’t understand, because this not being possible seems like a bit of a terrible oversight.

@Jaxeed - Routing MIDI to a plugin in Cakewalk basically depends on the options the plugin itself offers. And, it has been changing somewhat as VST2 is replaced by VST3 standards.   -That is, when they use the standards... but I digress.  -You need to check the documentation on your VST(s) to see what they offer for MIDI control first. Then learn how to enable MIDI input on the VST plugin - it used to need to be manually enabled for VST2 instruments, from the top bar of the VST window.   And again, this is specific to each plugin type & format.   So, once MIDI input is enabled on the plugin, and within the VST itself if necessary, you will see the MIDI as a source in the MIDI track output selection of a MIDI track in Cakewalk.

I use it all the time with Kontakt, for instance, and for them, each instrument loaded can have its own channel, and of course each instrument has its own MIDI mapping, so it can take some getting familiar with. Again, all channel capability is determined by the plugin, not Cakewalk.

One problem I had recently, was using MIDI bank/Patch changes with VSTs, once they changed to VST3. For instance, I used to keep a VST2 instance of TH-U around, so I could just add a patch change when playing live (there are now other methods available), and when they went to VST3, that broke.

Sometimes it takes a while to get my head around these things too, figuring out MIDI routing is tough because Cakewalk can't know the methods offered by your plugins, and sometimes even the method of getting your VST to listen to MIDI at all can be confusing.   -Hang in there, read up on your plugins!  

[msmcleod]

Cakewalk stores all of the MIDI channel information within each MIDI clip.  However, each track has a "MIDI Channel override" - when set to "None", the clip MIDI channel information is respected, otherwise it's overridden to the channel specified:

This allows you to force the MIDI channel regardless of what your controller keyboard channel is set to, or what channel the original clip's events were recorded in - useful for copying parts to different tracks.

By default:

- A Simple Instrument Track is always set to "None", meaning it'll send on all MIDI channels.
- A Per-Output Instrument Track is always set to a channel number - it starts at Channel 1, and continues up to Channel 16 (this is also true with the audio channels for Per-Output Instrument tracks).
 

[Byron Dickens]

This is all covered in the documentation.

[JnTuneTech]

8 hours ago, msmcleod said:

Cakewalk stores all of the MIDI channel information within each MIDI clip.  However, each track has a "MIDI Channel override" - when set to "None", the clip MIDI channel information is respected, otherwise it's overridden to the channel specified

Thanks - that's a bit I had not thought about in some time, but I vaguely remember running into that a few times when bringing external MIDI parts in to a project.  -And I'm guessing that if one decides to use the MIDI clip channel assignment, instead of the track routing, you could always modify the clip assignment from within the Event List? -Never tried that one.

The one thing I have run into, is when using a controller that outputs on multiple MIDI channels at the same time, you do have to remember to set that track filter to "none", or, -so I say now anyway-, the result would be obvious in your track setting! It took me a while to get my head around that for some reason.

[scook]

MIDI clips do not store channel information.

Channel, like pitch and velocity, is a MIDI note property.

Channel may be modified in selected notes using the event list view, note properties dialog and event inspector module.

Channel may be overridden by the channel drop down in the instrument/MIDI track inspectors and headers.

 

 

[JnTuneTech]

@scook -Ah yes, thanks, I was speaking  (typing) a bit too soon, more coffee needed, etc.  I actually was thinking about the channel info on MIDI notes in the Event view, but somehow conflated that with clip properties...  Thanks!

[Promidi]

Yes, I always set MIDI track’s MIDI channel to a specific channel rather than “none”.   I even have RechannelMIDI=1 added in Preferences - File - Initialization File (Advanced).

[JnTuneTech]

I guess that setting would help if you were in a rush just wanting to hit record on a new MIDI track, some of the time anyway. In my workflow, I often want to set the track output channel filter to something different at the beginning anyway, as it doesn't always match the controller channel I am also setting the input filter for.

The MIDI track filter/conversion selectors in Cakewalk have always been important to me, as I tend to import a lot of MIDI files, and send them out to a GM compatible multi-timbral VSTi (like TTS-1) for previewing them, etc.

But to repeat a bit of my earlier post, learning to turn the filter to "none" can be important. Try recording, and playing back commands from a Mackie compatible controller, for instance, with a specific MIDI channel set on in and/or out of your track, and you will wonder where some of that data went!

Edited February 26, 2023 by JnTuneTech

[Jaxeed]

On 2/27/2023 at 1:46 AM, bitflipper said:

Make sure you're using separate MIDI tracks for each MIDI channel, as opposed to a Simple Instrument Track, with the MIDI channel number specified for each individual track. 

 

 

Thanks bitflipper! Now I’m getting it and that was exactly what I was doing wrong. This part of the DAW confused the heck out of me. I was dragging and dropping the instrument from the right-side plugin browser and picking “Simple Instrument Track”, in the belief I could expand the number of tracks as needed later. Getting all flustered as every MIDI track I created went to the same channel in TX16Wx, wondering why I couldn’t just pick Channel 2-3-4 etc.

Now, when I instead start by clicking the “Add Track” plus button and choose the number of tracks I want from there to begin with, everything works more as expected.

Appreciate the help!

 

On 2/26/2023 at 2:46 AM, User 905133 said:

I don't currently have a full-featured multitimbral soft synth that I can use to test, but I used to do this with hardware and a now-legacy multitimbral soft synth. I am not sure how it would work with TX16Wx, but assuming you have multiple midi tracks each having data on a single track, here are some steps to try:

• Using the Track Widget Control set to "All"
  • point each midi track to the same synth [O = Output Track Widget]
  • point each midi track to a different channel [C = Destination Channel Widget]

I don't have TX16Wx, so it might need some other set-up steps and it might not work with that synth.  

When you say Cakewalk only sends data to MIDI channel 1 to a multitimbral synth, it sounds to me like a setup issue.  The last time I looked, Cakewalk still sends midi data to different midi channels.  CONFIRMED!  

If those steps don't help, maybe post an image of the track header containing the widget settings to show the routings of each midi track.

PS: I am installing TX16Wx now to give it a try.  I downloaded and installed TX16Wx and rescanned my plug-ins.

UPDATE: Conclusion: Try the steps. 

• I don't have the time to look for samples to load up, but Cakewalk definitely sends midi data to different slots. Here's what I did:
  • Created an Instrument track with TX16Wx.
  • Created three MIDI tracks by recording random midi keypresses on each of three midi tracks.
    • NOTE: I did not record midi data on the instrument track.
      • (Its simpler that way, but it could be done if you record the data on different midi channels.)
  • Pointed each of the three midi tracks to the TX16Wx (using the Output Track Widget).
  • Pointed each of the three midi tracks to a different midi channel (using the Destination Channel Widget).

I can tell by the virtual LEDs on each of the TX16Wx Slots, the different midi tracks were sending data to different slots. 

Thanks for mentioning the TX16Wx.  Looks cool.  ?

Thank you so much for testing it out for me User 905133! I thought I hit a wall there, starting to think Cakewalk was way more limited than what it actually is. A little unintuitive perhaps, but now I’m getting it to work too. TX16Wx is a pretty neat tool, so glad I could spread the word.

 

On 2/26/2023 at 5:31 AM, JnTuneTech said:

@Jaxeed - Routing MIDI to a plugin in Cakewalk basically depends on the options the plugin itself offers. And, it has been changing somewhat as VST2 is replaced by VST3 standards.   -That is, when they use the standards... but I digress.  -You need to check the documentation on your VST(s) to see what they offer for MIDI control first. Then learn how to enable MIDI input on the VST plugin - it used to need to be manually enabled for VST2 instruments, from the top bar of the VST window.   And again, this is specific to each plugin type & format.   So, once MIDI input is enabled on the plugin, and within the VST itself if necessary, you will see the MIDI as a source in the MIDI track output selection of a MIDI track in Cakewalk.

I use it all the time with Kontakt, for instance, and for them, each instrument loaded can have its own channel, and of course each instrument has its own MIDI mapping, so it can take some getting familiar with. Again, all channel capability is determined by the plugin, not Cakewalk.

One problem I had recently, was using MIDI bank/Patch changes with VSTs, once they changed to VST3. For instance, I used to keep a VST2 instance of TH-U around, so I could just add a patch change when playing live (there are now other methods available), and when they went to VST3, that broke.

Sometimes it takes a while to get my head around these things too, figuring out MIDI routing is tough because Cakewalk can't know the methods offered by your plugins, and sometimes even the method of getting your VST to listen to MIDI at all can be confusing.   -Hang in there, read up on your plugins!  

This is all good to know, thank you JnTuneTech. If I run into these particular issues again, I know now that digging into the instrument settings might be a way to go. Turns out my issue was a little bit more basic, as I had initially created my instrument track in a way that limits my options. Didn’t realise my choices when creating the track would be permanent like that.

 

On 2/26/2023 at 11:15 AM, msmcleod said:

Cakewalk stores all of the MIDI channel information within each MIDI clip.  However, each track has a "MIDI Channel override" - when set to "None", the clip MIDI channel information is respected, otherwise it's overridden to the channel specified:

This allows you to force the MIDI channel regardless of what your controller keyboard channel is set to, or what channel the original clip's events were recorded in - useful for copying parts to different tracks.

By default:

- A Simple Instrument Track is always set to "None", meaning it'll send on all MIDI channels.
- A Per-Output Instrument Track is always set to a channel number - it starts at Channel 1, and continues up to Channel 16 (this is also true with the audio channels for Per-Output Instrument tracks).
 

AHA! This part I found a little confusing as well, so thank you for clearing this up. I was indeed messing about with the MIDI Channel overrides in the belief this might be where I select the next MIDI Channel for my instrument. No wonder it didn’t work! Appreciate the input msmcleod.

 

On 2/26/2023 at 7:18 PM, Byron Dickens said:

This is all covered in the documentation.

Yeah, sorry. As someone who used to be quite familiar with the Cubase workflow, I thought I could skate by on my intuition.
 

 

On 2/26/2023 at 8:10 PM, scook said:

MIDI clips do not store channel information.

Channel, like pitch and velocity, is a MIDI note property.

Channel may be modified in selected notes using the event list view, note properties dialog and event inspector module.

Channel may be overridden by the channel drop down in the instrument/MIDI track inspectors and headers.

 

 

AH! This is good to know if I want to send notes to different channels from the same MIDI track. Appreciate the input, thanks scook!

Edited March 4, 2023 by Jaxeed

[bitflipper]

Funny how things with "Simple" in the name can actually be complicated, e.g. Simple Mail Transfer Protocol, Simple Instrument Tracks.

Some history for the Class of 2023: SONAR originally did not have instrument tracks. Just MIDI tracks and audio tracks. They made perfect sense, especially if you came from hardware synths and sequencers.

But as usual, there were complainers who whined that other DAWs didn't make you think about MIDI and audio, just instruments, and why can't we have that? So instrument tracks were added (SONAR 8, iirc). That was soon followed by a flood of how-to questions on the forum, such as "how do I handle multi-timbral instruments?" and "how do I stack synths?". All of us old-timers gave the same advice: don't use Simple Instrument Tracks, go back to separate MIDI and audio tracks. "But that's not simple!" some complained. 

Well, yeh, it is necessarily more complicated when you have to think about what's going on under the hood. Synths are separate from the MIDI data that tells them what to do. MIDI can come from multiple sources. One MIDI track can drive multiple synths. Synths can have more than one audio output. Some synths can even output MIDI. Complexity is a necessary prerequisite to versatility. Simplification requires hiding features and limiting versatility.

And so it is that year after year new users are forced to learn the same lesson: don't use Simple Instrument Tracks. Years from now, Jaxeed will be here relating his experience to the next batch of initiates.

 

P.S. I do not hate instrument tracks. They can make for a tidier Track View. They can ease the transition from some other DAWs. They do the job just fine for single-voice instruments in mostly-audio projects. But I think if you took a poll you'd find that almost none of the more-experienced users here use them. OK, I've finished my second cup of coffee so time to move on to more serious stuff, e.g. pictures of cats playing guitar down in the Coffee House.

[Byron Dickens]

Absolutely. Sometimes "more complicated" is actually simpler....

[JnTuneTech]

13 hours ago, Jaxeed said:

Turns out my issue was a little bit more basic, as I had initially created my instrument track in a way that limits my options. Didn’t realise my choices when creating the track would be permanent like that.

-As in @bitflipper and @Byron Dickens posts - simple, or basic, as you say, is sometimes what actually obfuscates matters! -That certainly isn't your fault @Jaxeed - it's just the learning curve on these things.  [Saavik: -I don't understand... Kirk: You have to learn Why things work on a starship...]  

- Ah, and one good thing about tinkering around with this stuff on your DAW is that, nothing is really "permanent like that" - at least as long as you saved a backup somewhere before venturing off into trying something (or for me, actually stopping & reading the documentation sometimes!). You can always move your data from a "simple" tracking to a per output, and carry on from there, as I say though, just create a backup if you are concerned at all about losing something.

 

-One odd item I have to mention about internal midi routing in Cakewalk, maybe it's covered in another post somewhere, I am not sure. But: In my setup, when I create a basic MIDI track, and route it to anything, the volume fader setting on the MIDI track always sends out CC#7 (typically volume) data when the transport starts, and then when you use the fader. With the track MIDI filter set to 0 or 1, it puts out CC#7 values on channel 1, any other filter setting sends those values on the assigned channel. And I can never track the initial data in Event Viewer

I thought at one point I could turn that off, but now I can't find it. -That behavior has thrown me off in the past, when I was programming some synths, as well as the remote control I do with my sound interface control app, which accepts MCP, and on that, as well as many synths, the old standard of MIDI CC#7 is volume on my master out.

I happen to have a visual MIDI activity monitor on one of the patches going out of my sound interface, and I can see that Cakewalk outputs MIDI at the start of transport, and chase data (as per my choice in the MIDI preferences) when I return or manually select a different now time, so maybe the chase setting is where I turn that all off? I will have to try. I know by default CC#7 is output when I move the MIDI track volume fader, on my systems.

 

Anyway, as a note to the OP, you may also find that MIDI control "simple" functions can be hidden in plain sight, and it can definitely be confusing at the start. -For instance, I was testing some of this with an instance of Cakewalk S1-Electric Piano, in an empty project with basic MIDI tracking (insert MIDI track - from right-click in track view), and in that setup, the MIDI track sending to the instrument controls instrument volume - but not the one on the instrument GUI! Really confusing. -And I am used to seeing some VST instruments automatically "adjust" a main volume control in response to the MIDI track volume fader position when I first load them & hit play, but usually it is obvious somewhere in the instrument GUI, and usually I can opt to shut that off as well.   -Anyway... learning how all this works, and controlling it knowingly, is usually better in the long run, but once in a while, we go down a rabbit hole while experimenting!